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Author Topic: 428PI still running hot  (Read 3281 times)
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KR Convertible
Paul Orr
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« Reply #75 on: July 14, 2017, 12:39:50 PM »

Just came in from the garage to grab a little lunch and decided to check the forum.  After fighting for several hours trying to see the timing pointer past the brackets and belts I'm about ready for some "liquid lunch".  Is it just me, or are the timing marks near impossible to see?!?!

Wow, your head must really be spinning by now. I honestly don't think that 200 degrees is anything to worry about.
 You didn't say how many miles are on the engine. A fresh rebuild is going to be tight for a few thousand miles, and therefore generate more heat. Give it a chance to fully break in and loosen up a bit. At 60% flow in the radiator, that's where I would start.
                         Pete.

I addressed all of the issues I mentioned.  While the engine was out, I sent the radiator out to be checked and cleaned.  The radiator shop is who told me I was only flowing 60%, so  I had the radiator re-cored.

The test drive was at 2 am on a 65-70 degree night, and was over 200 in about 15 minutes.  I was at about 3/4 hot on the stock gauge which translates to about 225 degrees with IR temp gun on the intake near the sending unit. 

I agree on the break in being required.  Just trying to get it to run cooler so I can get some miles on it.

OK.  Lunch break is over.  Time for round 2.  Ding 

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« Reply #76 on: July 14, 2017, 12:52:34 PM »

Good luck. Keep us 'posted'. LOL
                   Pete.

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« Reply #77 on: July 14, 2017, 01:50:58 PM »

Ok.  Must have been low blood sugar!  Removed outer belt on alternator, and swung air pump all the way out and I could just barely see the very tip of the pointer and the numbers at the same time!  Set timing to 6 before w/o vacuum adv. (stock setting)  Hooked up the vacuum and it jumped to 18 deg.  Adjusted idle up to around 2800 (dash tach) leaving vacuum advance connected and got 44 deg total.  As far as I know the springs and weights in the distributor are stock.  I'm hoping the roads dry up so I can go for another test drive.

My lower hose spring didn't show up yet, so I guess I won't be doing that today or diluting anti freeze.

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« Reply #78 on: July 14, 2017, 03:31:32 PM »

Humm... based on my personal experience, that's too much initial and 44* total is probably 8* higher than I would want to see. Try getting the initial down around 13-14* and see what happens. A good mechanical temp gauge would probably be a good idea during this process. I fought this issue for several seasons on my .30 + PI motor 7/8 years ago. Also the FE forum would be a good source for opinions to resolve the issue.
Good luck

PS... make SURE you have the correct pointer, and a little whiteout on the balancer at 0*, 14* and 36* would be a good idea.

« Last Edit: July 14, 2017, 03:34:06 PM by corbins » Logged
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« Reply #79 on: July 14, 2017, 04:27:56 PM »

One more question...

When discussing timing, I have always thought the following:

Initial    Set to factory spec with vacuum advance disconnected.
Mechanical    Springs and weights only.
Total    Vacuum advance and mechanical advance combined.

I know this sounds like a dumb question, but while researching, came across a video with a guy setting total timing with vacuum advance disconnected and wanted to double check.

My mechanical advance is around 33.

Thanks.

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« Reply #80 on: July 14, 2017, 05:20:54 PM »

If I read Robert's post correctly in post #37, yes, set total advance without vacuum.

Not sure what it going up to 44 means as he also stated it is a helper under part throttle. Hopefully he sees this and chimes in.

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« Reply #81 on: July 15, 2017, 04:50:16 PM »

Shouldn't have jumped from 6 to 18 when hooking up vac. advance at idle.  Should be no vacuum at idle if you are using ported vacuum.

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« Reply #82 on: July 15, 2017, 05:24:10 PM »

That was using vacuum tree, which is fed from the back of the intake which is going to give full vacuum once warmed up.  I was starting with stock set up to get some baseline numbers.

After more research, apparently my understanding of total timing is wrong.  It seems that total timing does not include vacuum advance.  Using that info, I set initial timing to 12 degrees, which put my total at 33, which is pretty close to what Rob recommended.  I then hooked the vacuum advance to the vacuum port on the left side of the primary metering block, which should be ported vacuum.  It ran pretty decent, but did ping pretty badly under acceleration.  Temperature read a bit over half on the gauge and fluctuated up to 3/4.  When I got home I put the IR gun on the intake and got 215 degrees.  Temperature drop from upper to lower hose is only about 20 degrees.

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« Reply #83 on: July 16, 2017, 12:03:28 AM »

It shouldn't be pinging under acceleration.. Like i suggested, get the piston at TDC and make sure the timing pointer is pointing to TDC on the balancer.. You could be setting your initial timing in the wrong position..

« Last Edit: July 16, 2017, 02:35:06 AM by 67GT500 » Logged

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« Reply #84 on: July 17, 2017, 04:21:46 AM »

I THINK, the correct way to set timing is with a vacuum gauge. At idle with vacuum lines disconnected and ports plugged, you turn the distributor until the vacuum stops climbing. Lock the distributor down. Reconnect your vacuum lines, then turn the carb set screws down until you have the spec'ed rpm.

You will PROBABLY NEED to play with that idle rpm just a little to make sure the brakes will hold the car at idle.

You may get a slight momentarily ping going uphill, but that IS normal. ALSO the idle level should be set down to a hair over idle roughness. That is where it is designed to be without the politics of having to explain to customers that it should be just a little rough. They, Ford, didn't want to deal with that so set it just above that.

Whatever the number now shows on the balancer is now what YOUR car should be set at. PROBABLY around 12 on a small block. PROBABLY around 8-9 on a BB. PROBABLY around 32-33 total MECHANICAL advance.

Variations are going to come from fuel octane. There is going to be a variation from original idle characteristics now unless you are running on the old purple SUNOCO 106 LEADED gas. You may be, but that is highly unlikely in my view.

Vaccum advance is just added to give you maybe 1 or 2 more miles per gallon on mileage results. Everything helps ESPECIALLY with a FE that is probably around 8 miles per gallon around town to begin with.

Living with an ORIGINAL '60s big block of any manufacturer these days is not necessarily simple and uncomplicated? I personally don't think it was EVER a simple thing to keep these monsters under control? Wink

Incidentally I think your 212 to 220 is close to a perfect operating temp.



« Last Edit: July 17, 2017, 05:09:20 AM by stickshift » Logged
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« Reply #85 on: July 17, 2017, 08:22:48 AM »

I indicated TDC while I had the motor apart, pointer lined up perfectly.

As far as fuel goes,  I'm using 92-93 premium unleaded with 10% ethanol.  I am trying to make the car run on what is available around here.  The closest place to get anything better (higher octane, leaded, or without ethanol) is around 25 miles away.  I want to be able to drive in any direction and not have to worry about where I'm going to find gas and how many gallons I will burn trying to make it there.

Yesterday I spent the day messing with timing again.  I kept shimming the vacuum advance to limit its pull.  I finally adjusted all of the movement out of it, and the car would ping above 200 degrees.  It doesn't seem to ping nearly as bad below 200.  I then freed up the vacuum advance and left it disconnected, and started backing off on timing, 10 degrees BTC... pings, 8 degrees... pings.  All of these adjustments were with ZERO vacuum advance and about 20 degrees of mechanical advance.  Have I gotten all of the advance the fuel is going let me?

My poor Mac timing/advance gun has gotten more work in the past week than it has seen in 30 years and keeps frying solder joints.  I have re-soldered 3 spots on the board so far.  I may have to break down and buy a new one!

« Last Edit: July 17, 2017, 08:53:16 AM by KR Convertible » Logged

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« Reply #86 on: July 17, 2017, 10:14:18 AM »

It isn't necessarily the total advance that you are using. It is the rate at which you are achieving total advance.

It may be simply that you need to bring total advance in by 5,000 rpm. Not 2,800 rpm.

There isn't anything wrong with the engine. The fuel can't take that kind of a pressure rate increase and will tend to detonate.

The simplest thing to do is just slow down the rate of the mechanical advance. You need to guess at that until you find the sweet spot.

Those would be the big thick ugly advance springs that came stock in the high performance distributors back then. "You" had to change them out?

I seem to remember the 289hp distributor having one heavy spring and one light spring stock?



The recommendations of the era, when there was 106 in the pumps, was to have the engine all in by around 2,200 to 2,400 rpm. That's drag race advance speed.

One VERY interesting thing that I find now is that if you run on pure leaded 106, the idle rpm will drop from what you have it set at now without you touching anything. The engine runs cooler also. It's race gas only now but back then it was in the pumps at SUNOCO. Expensive though. $.49 a gallon!



Maybe Randy can explain all this? I'm past thinking about it cause at $7.75 a gallon, no 106 is going into my tank.

I would also recommend, don't even bother with the 102 Sunoco unleaded racing gas. It's a waste of time and money. It does nothing for you at all. At least it didn't in my 11.8:1 Cleveland with the pop-up pistons. ONLY 106 would do.

« Last Edit: July 17, 2017, 10:20:48 AM by stickshift » Logged
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« Reply #87 on: July 17, 2017, 01:53:32 PM »

Would an octane additive help in regards to the engine running a bit cooler?

- Phillip

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« Reply #88 on: July 17, 2017, 03:48:59 PM »

Would an octane additive help in regards to the engine running a bit cooler?

- Phillip

106 Sunoco will make it run cooler. You couldn't add enough octane booster to get to that level with todays unleaded Premiums.

A full 103 could possibly help with it though.

There are probably some "alchemists" here that could give you the mix of what to stir together to get there I suspect?

I detuned years ago to be able to run on pump Premium unleaded.


I know that leaning out a fuel mixture raises the combustion temps. Enrichening it cools it. BB Shelby carbs don't run lean as they are. I'm not sure you would be successful by going that route anyway?

You would need to change the idle air bleeds. Close them down to enrichen the idle. Opening up the idle screws increases the volume of fuel at idle. You need to reduce the amount of air in the mixture. That means closing down the air bleeds.

« Last Edit: July 17, 2017, 03:56:27 PM by stickshift » Logged
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« Reply #89 on: July 17, 2017, 06:45:09 PM »

From reply #84, for an automatic would this be accomplished in gear or in park?

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