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Author Topic: G.T.500 with 427?  (Read 8896 times)
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TLea
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« Reply #15 on: May 01, 2017, 04:09:29 AM »

Noooo, a memo about one proposed car, but most likely never built.
The proposed car also had a special "proposed" purpose also. Would be cool if it existed but like Pete said it was just written in a memo

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« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2017, 06:09:53 AM »

Ohhh, morning rant...aisle 1

Wait, I have to chase down every person who thinks he knows something about 1968 Shelbys?

That's not going to happen.  

Like I said before... The statements represent a fundamental misunderstanding about the production of the cars.

We should be able to agree 427 engines were NOT installed in New Jersey at Ford assembly. That's documented in Ford records and with Kevin Marti.

They were not installed by AO Smith in Ionia. Those production lines could not and would not (under contract) swap engines. Now we are left with a dealer or third party vendor doing 3 dozen cars? Laughable. I have studied "engineering cars" for years. There weren't even three dozen cars total in 1968.

The statement "dealer installed" is questionable as well. It's been fifty years and not one person has been able to step up and prove their car had a "dealer" installed 427 in 1968.

Can we put this to rest?

Maybe Mr. "I rented one" needs to step up and come in here. Not likely. Because he likely has no proof, no serial numbers, no documentation. The Ford records do not support his claims. The Shelby records do not support his claims. The production of the cars does not support his claims.  The uninformed can continue to entertain the ignorant.

« Last Edit: May 01, 2017, 08:03:28 AM by Coralsnake » Logged

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« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2017, 08:24:06 AM »

It looks like Mr Gaines is going to handle the light work....

The "extraordinary claims" torpodeo will sink a lot of ships.

 Hysterical





« Last Edit: May 01, 2017, 08:25:56 AM by Coralsnake » Logged

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« Reply #18 on: May 01, 2017, 08:28:23 AM »

     The 428CJ cost half as much to produce and made more torque and hp ( purposely rated lower) . Same reason the GTE Cougar engine changed from 427 to 428. People have been chasing the W code Unicorn for over thirty years. Sure the "X" garage tested them in S code chassis , but Marti has the "official" info from the Ford database and no unicorns are listed. The hydraulic lifter (GTE Cougar) engine was a FAR cry from what we normally associate to as a 427. It was more like a 390GT with a block and piston change. It never had a chance. Putting a "real" 427 Medium riser in a Mustang REQUIRED steel tubing headers as exhaust manifolds were NEVER made. The Cougar used 390GT manifolds on the 427 and CJs on the CJs. Neither work with a 16 bolt 427 MR head. Steel tubing headers rarely worked with power steering without a special bracket for the ram ( bad idea) , so this whole 26 car thing is fairy dust.
    As Pete mentioned "Union rules" prohibited A.O. Smith from doing drive train work. "Accessories" could be added, nothing more.

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« Reply #19 on: May 01, 2017, 09:58:12 AM »

It looks like Mr Gaines is going to handle the light work....

The "extraordinary claims" torpodeo will sink a lot of ships.

 Hysterical




I waited for you but my emotions got the better of me .I couldn't stand all the foolishness. Chug a Lug

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« Reply #20 on: May 01, 2017, 10:18:26 AM »

Seems like a good place for a shameless plug -

Coming soon, a new book detailing the vehicle that did receive a 427 from the factory.

Tho it was a "FAR cry" 427  Chug a Lug

- Phillip



* GTE-Book-Cover-rev2.jpg (7.12 KB, 800x528 - viewed 73 times.)
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« Reply #21 on: May 01, 2017, 10:31:18 AM »

Phillip, who did the cover illustration?



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Chris Thauberger
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« Reply #22 on: May 01, 2017, 10:51:28 AM »

I think this is a close as a 427 ever came to being part of the Shelby program  Wink

Chris



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« Reply #23 on: May 01, 2017, 11:34:43 AM »

Phillip, who did the cover illustration?



I did the wrap-around cover design and illustration, and Brian Styles contributed to the research.

That's a great document Chris - guess someone tried. I would think that at least a few buyers went for the GT-E when they weren't able to get the 427 in a GT500.

- Phillip

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« Reply #24 on: May 01, 2017, 11:42:16 AM »

Nice work Phillip!!

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68er
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« Reply #25 on: May 01, 2017, 11:55:52 AM »

    The 428CJ cost half as much to produce and made more torque and hp ( purposely rated lower) . Same reason the GTE Cougar engine changed from 427 to 428. People have been chasing the W code Unicorn for over thirty years. Sure the "X" garage tested them in S code chassis , but Marti has the "official" info from the Ford database and no unicorns are listed. The hydraulic lifter (GTE Cougar) engine was a FAR cry from what we normally associate to as a 427. It was more like a 390GT with a block and piston change. It never had a chance. Putting a "real" 427 Medium riser in a Mustang REQUIRED steel tubing headers as exhaust manifolds were NEVER made. The Cougar used 390GT manifolds on the 427 and CJs on the CJs. Neither work with a 16 bolt 427 MR head. Steel tubing headers rarely worked with power steering without a special bracket for the ram ( bad idea) , so this whole 26 car thing is fairy dust.
    As Pete mentioned "Union rules" prohibited A.O. Smith from doing drive train work. "Accessories" could be added, nothing more.

Interesting.  I met a 1968 427 Cougar GTE owner once who told me he put a 428CJ carb and exhaust on his car and that really improved performance.  It almost seemed that Ford intentionally restricted the performance on the 1968 427 with that small carb and restrictive exhaust.  But I don't think headers were required, because the 1967 Fairlane had special better flowing cast iron manifolds on the 427 and I believe those were the ones Tasca used in their modied 1968 Mustang.  I think they fit with a little grinding to clear the steering box.  Those 1967 Fairlane manifolds appear in the 427 pictures in the 1968 shop manual.  So, maybe a modified version of those was planned for the 427 Mustang/Shelby.

As you all probably know, the 1968 427 was rated at 390hp for the Cougar GTE, but some early 1968 model year Shelby literature rated the 427 at 425hp, which was equal to the 2 X 4V 1966-67 version of the 427.  Does anyone know what was initially planned for the Shelby version of the 427 for 1968 to get it up to 425hp?  Maybe a dual quad, or maybe it was a carryover hp number from the 1967 427?

If you correct the small 4V carb and the restrictive exhaust on the 1968 Cougar GTE 427, then my guess is that you could beat any 428CJ car that was similarly equipped and of similar weight, even with the hydraulic cam, at most distances.  The short stroke 427 just revs so much better.

« Last Edit: May 01, 2017, 12:06:11 PM by 68er » Logged
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« Reply #26 on: May 01, 2017, 12:02:24 PM »

I think this is a close as a 427 ever came to being part of the Shelby program  Wink

Chris



Too bad THAT car was not made. Undecided

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« Reply #27 on: May 01, 2017, 12:22:07 PM »

   68er,
       Respectfully,
    I am one of those that "tried" to use the 427 Fairlane manifolds on a Mustang 427 conversion , "back then". After a couple of days worth of attempts , the car went to Jardine's for a set of tubular headers. That is precisely the reason why Ford switched heads and used the GT exhaust on the GTE. While similar Fairlane and Mustang engine compartments are not "the same".
   Yes there was a "factory memo" noting that the performance was better with a 780 Holley , but it wouldn't pass emissions,and "buyers would likely change the carb anyway". For '68 dual quads were "a thing of the past", as the "loop holes" that let it happen after '65 (new smog regulations) closed at the end of '67. "Ford" now built the cars , not a "small manufacturer" like SAI. 425HP was never to be seen again in the Ford lineup. ( Well until recently)

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owner 6S477 HERTZ White w/Blue stripes-1of18-since 1974. OVER 3,500 drag strip runs made in it since then. My candidate for the "worlds Most drag raced Shelby" More added all the time.
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« Reply #28 on: May 01, 2017, 12:43:35 PM »

  68er,
       Respectfully,
    I am one of those that "tried" to use the 427 Fairlane manifolds on a Mustang 427 conversion , "back then". After a couple of days worth of attempts , the car went to Jardine's for a set of tubular headers. That is precisely the reason why Ford switched heads and used the GT exhaust on the GTE. While similar Fairlane and Mustang engine compartments are not "the same".
   Yes there was a "factory memo" noting that the performance was better with a 780 Holley , but it wouldn't pass emissions,and "buyers would likely change the carb anyway". For '68 dual quads were "a thing of the past", as the "loop holes" that let it happen after '65 (new smog regulations) closed at the end of '67. "Ford" now built the cars , not a "small manufacturer" like SAI. 425HP was never to be seen again in the Ford lineup. ( Well until recently)

Thanks.  Yeah, most likely the early Shelby references to 425hp were probably carryovers from 1967, before they knew what the 1968 version of the 427 would look like.  So, the Fairlane 1967 427 exhaust manifolds do not fit the 1968 Shelby/Mustang engine bay at all?  This says they do (with some "minor grinding"):

http://home.windstream.net/bsprowl/ExhaustInterchange.html

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68er
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« Reply #29 on: May 01, 2017, 12:59:04 PM »

Thanks.  Yeah, most likely the early Shelby references to 425hp were probably carryovers from 1967, before they knew what the 1968 version of the 427 would look like.  So, the Fairlane 1967 427 exhaust manifolds do not fit the 1968 Shelby/Mustang engine bay at all?  This says they do (with some "minor grinding"):

http://home.windstream.net/bsprowl/ExhaustInterchange.html

Actually, in looking at this again, Ford/Shelby seemed to be planning a 425hp 427 for 1968, with a Holley 4V of unspecified type.  Also, the 428 seems to be listed at 390hp:

http://www.1967shelbyconvertible.com/documentation/original-documents/1967-07-06-Long-Lead-Technical-Conference-Press-Release-1968-Shelby-Models-Fact-Sheet.asp

It would be interesting to know what they had planned to get the 427 up to 425hp...

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