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Question: listing in order the most historically significant Cobra roadsters  (Voting closed: June 03, 2008, 02:21:12 PM)
CSX2002 - 5 (16.7%)
CSX2019 - 2 (6.7%)
CSX2127 - 1 (3.3%)
CSX2128 - 1 (3.3%)
CSX2129 - 0 (0%)
CSX2136 - 0 (0%)
CSX2137 - 5 (16.7%)
CSX2138 - 1 (3.3%)
CSX2154 - 0 (0%)
CSX2155 - 0 (0%)
CSX2156 - 0 (0%)
CSX2259 - 2 (6.7%)
CSX2260 - 0 (0%)
CSX2301 - 1 (3.3%)
CSX2323 - 0 (0%)
CSX2345 - 8 (26.7%)
CSX2385 - 0 (0%)
CSX2409 - 0 (0%)
CSX2430 - 0 (0%)
CSX2431 - 4 (13.3%)
CSX2458 - 0 (0%)
CSX2459 - 0 (0%)
CSX2488 - 0 (0%)
CSX2494 - 0 (0%)
CSX2513 - 0 (0%)
CSX2514 - 0 (0%)
CSX2557 - 0 (0%)
CSX2558 - 0 (0%)
Total Voters: 10

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Author Topic: 289 Cobra Most historically Significant - roadsters only  (Read 24257 times)
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acman63
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« on: May 24, 2008, 12:44:27 PM »

Ok,  this is a poll for the most historically significant Cobra Roadster not necessarilly the one worth the most money albeit they go hand and hand.  I have my list and will put it out after the poll is done in 10 days. here are the candidates

2002
       2019
       2127
       2128
       2129
       2136
       2137   
       2138
       2154   
       2155
       2156
       2259
       2260   
       2301
       2323
       2345
       2385
       2409
       2430
       2431
       2458
       2459
       2488
       2494
       2513
       2514
       2557
       2558


« Last Edit: May 24, 2008, 01:48:58 PM by acman63 » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2008, 01:02:47 PM »

CSX2345 due to European race history, originality, and who drove it (Whitmore and Bondurant etc)

CSX2137 due to first FIA victory and rarity of the LeMans Replica body style - most notable the large vents, spats, short trunk and, "Joseph" rear flares and drivers: Bondo, Gurney, etc.

Sentimental favorite is CSX2138 since MacDonald was my favorite cobra racer, I love the hardtop, and Acman63 let me crawl all over it when he owned it.

Mike


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« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2008, 02:22:33 PM »

Note - you can vote for your favorite THREE cars.

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KRANKY
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« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2008, 04:12:57 PM »

Ron and acman:

There are quite a few other cars to add to list:

260/Comp:
2001-Jean Vincent
2008-Ken Miles (Riverside Ed.)-Bordinant Coupe
2009-Holman Moody-Tom Payne
2011-J. Everly
2014-Skip Hudson-Daytona Prototype chassis
2017-R.E.L. Hayes
2026-Bob Johnson
2027-Dan Gerber
2035-John Razelle
2043-Bob Brown-Mark Donahue
2051-George Reed/Pat Manning/Warren Fairbanks

289 Comp:
2130-Bob Olthoff
2131-Le Mans Cobra-Bolton/Sanderson
CS2131-Willment Coupe-Well you said no Daytona Coupes
2142-Le Mans Cobra-Hugus/Peter Jopp
2153-Ed Lowther/Bob Nagel
2164-Bill Steele
2189-Bob Johnson
2196-Ken Miles-"427 Prototype"-I only included this because it's on 2000 series chassis
2290-Charlie Parsons/Monte Shelton
2473-Don Roberts

289 COB"s:
6004-Asheton Cross
6006-Derek Ridley
6008-Keith Schellenberg
6024-David Purley
6033-R. Thorpe
6040 & 6040A-N. Granville
6041-Bo Ljungfeld/Patrick McNally
HEM6-Roy Salvadori/Chris Amon

Here are the ones that I have a problem with:
2259-Lynn Park-Re-creation
2260/2301-Both Cobras were combined together after they were seriously damaged at Nurburgring and Spa.
2409-Graham Shaw-Destroyed after 2 races, hence the purchase of 2323 and a roll-cage install.
2514-Don Russell-only one race noted
2557-Charlie Hayes-only race was with a DNF

I know that there are several other Comp Cobras/Dragon Snakes out there, I just didn't include them on the list.



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« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2008, 04:34:12 PM »

Ok,  this is a poll for the most historically significant Cobra Roadster not necessarilly the one worth the most money albeit they go hand and hand.  I have my list and will put it out after the poll is done in 10 days. here are the candidates

acman63,
I assume you mean historically significant disregarding the present existence or condition?

Not sure I would agree with the "albeit they go hand in hand" as far as worth when one considers some of these cars present 'condition'.

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« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2008, 06:11:11 PM »

Thank you Kranky.

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6S2055
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« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2008, 09:34:01 PM »

CSX2196 because it is the grandfather for the CSX3000 series....even though it's on a 289 chassis...somewhat. And the history connected to Ken Miles

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« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2008, 11:13:28 AM »


2260/2301-Both Cobras were combined together after they were seriously damaged at Nurburgring and Spa.


I think this belief was dispelled when CSX2260 was restored a few years ago.  While I didn't see the chassis, it have heard that there is no sign that the frame was grafted together.  I believe the current school of thought is that 2260 survived and 2301 no longer exists.

Maybe others can clarify.

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Cobra Ned
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« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2008, 12:43:10 PM »

Correct. The 2260 chassis was thoroughly examined and (a) there were no signs of its having been given a new chassis, as a Radford Racing mechanic had indicated, and (b) it showed signs of a race accident that had been repaired following a shunt at SPA in 5/65, positively identifying it as the 2260 chassis. Various former members of the Radford Racing Team - who owned both 2260 and 2301 - said they did not know why one of their mechanics made the claim that the cars had been combined on a new chassis, and refuted the idea, noting that they would have remembered the associated costs if such a rebuild had occurred.

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KRANKY
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« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2008, 02:44:15 PM »

When did Radford Racing sell 2260 and 2301 and to whom?

Stan Falor, VIR Sept 28-29, 1968=is this 2260?Huh??


Stan Falor, Cumberland 1967=is this 2260?Huh??


CSX2260 race history:
Datona Continental 2/16/1964-#15-DNF-j. Schelesser/L. Guichet-PISTON
Augusta USRRC 3/1/1964-#16-2nd GT-Dave MacDonald
12 Hours of Sebring 3/21/1964-#14-3rd GT/6th OA-J. Schlesser/Phil Hill
Targa Florio 4/26/1964-#148-DNF-Innes Ireland/Maston Gregory-CRASH
Freiburg Hillclimb 8/9/1964-#67-3rd GT-J. Siffert
Sierra Montana 8/30/1964-#177-2nd GT-J. Schlesser
SOLD TO RADFORD RACING AFTER 1964 SEASON?Huh??
Monza 4/25/1965-#52-DNA-N. Dangerfield/Mick H. Cave
Oulton Park 5/1/1965-#25-3rd GT-Allan Grant
Spa 5/16/1965-#22-DNF-H. Digby-CRASH

CSX2301 race history:
12 Hours of Sebring 3/21/1964-#12-2nd GT/5th OA-Bob Bondurant/Lew Spencer
Pensacola USRRC 4/5/1964-#14-1st GT-Ken Miles
Targa Florio 4/26/1964-#150-DNF-V. Arena/V. Coco-OIL PIPE FAILURE
Oulton Park 5/1965-#?-8th OA-J. Sparrow
Spa 5/17/1964-#4-3rd GT/11th OA-J. Schlesser
Nurburgring 5/31/1964-#99-1st GT-J. Schlesser/David Attwood
Freiburg Hillclimb 8/9/1964-#144-2nd GT-J. Neerpasch
Sierra Montana 8/9/1964-#175-3rd GT-J. Neerpasch
SOLD TO RADFORD RACING AFTER 1964 SEASON?Huh??
Monza 4/25/1965-#51-3rd GT-N. Dangerfield/J. Sparrow
Oulton Park 5/1/1965-#26-5th GT-N. Dangerfield/J. Sparrow
Spa 5/16/1965-#23-2nd GT-C. McLaren
Nurburgring 5/23/1965-#52-DNF-J. Sparrow/C. McLaren-CRASH
Le Mans 6/20/1965-DNA-J. Sparrow/H. Digby-CRASHED AT NURBURGRING
Silverstone 7/24/1965-DNF-N. Dangerfield-COMPLETE REBUILD OF 2301 USING THE GOOD PARTS OFF OF 2260?Huh?
Zandvoort 8/29/1965-#?-4th OA-J. Sparrow
Monza 4/25/1966-#10-DNF-J. Sparrow/J. Pendleton-OIL PRESSURE
Brands Hatch 5/8/1966-DNS-Tony Flory-ACCIDENT IN PRACTICE-DRIVER DIED
Spa 5/22/1966-#45-DNA-N. Dangerfield-CAR CRASHED AT BRANDS HATCH

So what did RadFord Racing do with 2260 after the Spa 1965 race??  Was it completely rebuilt and by whom??  Who was the next owner??

What did RadFord Racing do with 2301 after the "2ND ACCIDENT" at Brands Hatch?  Was it completely rebuilt and by whom??  Who was the next owner??

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Cobra Ned
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« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2008, 03:14:05 PM »

Kranky, is it possible you do not have a '97 registry?

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« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2008, 12:35:42 AM »

Historically significant Jim ? That has to be a tough one, but my all time favorite is CSX 2431. I always thought the USRRC cars were the best looking, but to add to the mix who the original Shelby American team driver was who raced this car, its tough to beat. The current owner drives the car very well and is not afraid to take the car out on the track so we can all enjoy it in its natural environment. 

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KRANKY
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« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2008, 08:15:40 PM »

To Ned:

As quoted from the 1997 Registry:

CSX2260:

"Following the '64 season, 2260 and 2301 were sold by European team manager John Wyer to Radford Racing-a group comprised of John Sparrow, Neil Dangerfield, Chris McLaren, and Harry Digby-for $7500 each.  (FoMoCo's Special Vehicles Finances Department was billed on 1/28/1965 for the "depreciaton" of these cars, which amounted to roughly $4,050 apiece.)  For 2260, the '65 season lasted only two races: the 5/1/65 Oulton Park, Eng. Tourist Trophy, as #2, driven by Allen Grant:(first heat:) 9th OA, (second heat:) 6th OA; and the 5/16/65 Spa 500km, #22, Harry Digb: DNF. (Digby was rear ended by John Whitmore in a Cobra coupe, and spun off the track.)  The collision involving 2260 followed by a week the crashing of 2301 at Brands Hatch, following which Radford dismantled both cars.  Salvaging the front bodywork from 2260 and the rear bodywork off 2301, they built one complete car utilizing a new chassis purchased from AC Cars.  Sparrow later recalled that most of what was left over was bent and went into the scrap.  Although the new chassis was stamped "CSX2260," and the doors and the trunk were still so numbered from the factory, Sparrow only had the current paperwork for CSX2301.   Expedience dictated that the car would be called by that VIN rather than 2260, for which the paperwork (or "carnet") was no longer valid.  The reconstructed car was advertised in '67 as "64 ex-works Shelby Cobra, as driven by Bob Bondurant and Jo Schlesser...Completely overhauled and ready to race.  Comprehensive spares plus tires available at extra cost if required.  $4500 delivered to East Coast Port."  The car was sold on July 18, 1967 to Stanley L. Falor (Pittsburg, PA) as serial #CSX2301, at a price of $3,535, with an extra ring and pinion ($21); 5 Firestone wet tires ($70); a Salisbury differential ($98); 3 Goodyear Sports Car Special tires ($42); and inner tubes ($24), for a total of $3,790.  Once Falor got the car and inspected it, it was obvious that the cars primary and secondary chassis stampings were those of 2260; painted white numbers on the dashboard were all that identified it as 2301.  Although Falor raced the car with some success, he was concerned about the cars identity, knowing that most race scutineers examined the cars thoroughly.  Early in 1968, he wrote to Radford Racing to question why his car, which was sold as 2301, bore so many of 2260's numbers.  A response was received C.L. Preece, Radford's former chief mechanic, on 3/21/68: "The chassis on your car was a new replacement.  About June '66, we had two cars, one of which was written off, and in order to save in getting new carnets, both numbers were used, a little irregular but time was in short supply.  You could use whichever number suits you."  Faced with the standard headaches that any attempt to alter a car's VIN with the authorities, Falor continued to identify the car as 2301.  In '68 the Cobra was sold to Ed Lowther (Mc Murray, PA).  Having been advised about the chassis situation, Lowther, when selling the car on 4/22/70 to David C Harshman (MD) for $4,500, described it as "One AC Shelby Cobra 289 racing car, serial #2301 and component parts from CSX_____."  Accompanying this written transaction was a "To Whom It May Concern" document, which noted "I, C. Edward Lowther, turn over all rights of ownership on one 1964 Cobra, serial numbers CSX2301 and CSX2260 (two cars combined into one in England...) to David C Harshman.  This car was purchased from Stanely L Falor, M.D."......."

CSX2301:

"Following the '64 season in Europe, 2260 and 2301 were sold for $7,500 each by team manage John Wyer to a group of individuals-Chris McLaren, Harry Digby, John Sparrow and Neil Dangerfield-who called their team "Radford Racing." Radford left the car(s) Viking Blue, but added thin red stripes flanked in black that angled back from the outside upper edge of the grille opening along the low point between the hood and front fenders up to the windshield.  Under the Radford Racing banner, 2301 continued to race with success: 4/65 Monza 1000km, Dangerfield/Sparrow: 12th OA, 4th GT; 5/65 Oulton Park: Tourist Trophy , Sparrow: 8th OA, 5th GT; 5/65 Spa 500km, Chris McLaren: 2nd GT: 5/65 Nurburgring , McLaren/Sparrow: DNF; the car was crashed in to the berm at the Carousel.  The team competed at other events during the latter part of '65-setting a GT lap record at Dunboyne, Ireland-and returned for the '66 season.  But in practice for Illford Film 500km race at Brands Hatch on 5/7/66, a new Radford driver, Tony Flory, crashed 2301 at the Paddock Bend and was killed.  Harry Digby then crashed 2260, the other ex-Shelby car, a week later at Spa.  In an effort to salvage what was left, the Radford team purchased a new chassis from AC Cars and, using the front body work of 2260 and the rear bodywork of 2301, combined all three into one vehicle."........[/b]

Now here come a bunch of questions and photos:

Stan Falor-CSX2301(now CSX2260)-Cumberland 5/1967-note the Cobra still has the Radford Racing colors and still has the FIA fender features.



Note the date at Cumberland 5/1967 and what the 1997 Registry says=The car was sold on July 18, 1967 to Stanley L. Falor (Pittsburg, PA) Undecided

Now we have two people from Radford Racing: John Sparrow (driver) and C.L Preece (former chief Radford Racing mechanic) quoted as saying that they purchased a NEW CHASSIS FROM AC CARS AND USED THE FRONT BODYWORK FROM 2260 AND THE REAR BODYWORK FROM 2301.  As quoted from the 1997 Registry "The collision involving 2260 followed by a week the crashing of 2301 at Brands Hatch, following which Radford dismantled both cars.  Salvaging the front bodywork from 2260 and the rear bodywork off 2301, they built one complete car utilizing a new chassis purchased from AC Cars.  Sparrow later recalled that most of what was left over was bent and went into the scrap.  Although the new chassis was stamped "CSX2260," and the doors and the trunk were still so numbered from the factory, Sparrow only had the current paperwork for CSX2301.   Expedience dictated that the car would be called by that VIN rather than 2260, for which the paperwork (or "carnet") was no longer valid."

So if the above statement is true we now have a new chassis with bodywork from 2260 and 2301 and possibly two chassis numbers stamped in to the new chassis but only one set of paperwork naming the so called Cobra CSX2301 since Radford did not have the paperwork for 2260 and the next race, Silverstone was on 7/24/65.  This gave Radford Racing only two months to build a new car.  So which car, 2260 or 2301 was discarded in to the "SCRAP"

So now should all of the race records of (2301) after Nurburgring 5/23/1965-Brands Hatch 5/8/1966 be rewritten as 2260 instead of 2301, since Radford only had paperwork for 2301 and the NEW CHASSIS was really 2260?Huh??  Since Stan Falor was so concerned about the Tech inspectors noticing a discrepency in the chassis number and his paperwork of 2301 wouldn't the European Tech inspectors have also noticed this discrepentcy?Huh??

So we now have an original damaged Cobra, 2260, that was discarded in to the dumpster sometime from 5/16/65 (Spa) to June 1966.
 
So if we have a new chassis/car (2301/2260) which is then wrecked at Brands Hatch on 5/8/1966, the driver Tony Flory is killed in practice at the Paddock Hill, is this the damage that Ned is talking about ,"The 2260 chassis was thoroughly examined and (a) there were no signs of its having been given a new chassis, as a Radford Racing mechanic had indicated, and (b) it showed signs of a race accident that had been repaired following a shunt at SPA in 5/65, positively identifying it as the 2260 chassis."  The problems with that quote are that J. Sparrow and the Chief Mechanic were both quoted as saying that THEY PURCHASED A NEW CHASSIS FROM AC CARS.  The second problem is that Paddock Hill at Brands Hatch only had a FIVE FOOT RUNOFF BEFORE ONE CRASHED IN TO THE PIT AND HILLSIDE, the same corner has claimed many cars over the years including THE DEMOLISHING OF DAVID PURLEY'S COBRA ON THE EXACT SAME CORNER IN 1968 (WHICH WAS ALSO ANOTHER COBRA THROWN IN TO THE DUMPSTER).

The following photo is an example of the "pit and hill" at Paddock Hill, Brands Hatch.



So is 2260 a new Cobra chassis from AC Cars, but has pre-replacement history and post-Stan Falor race history and what happened to the original chassis?Huh?? Does 2260 have the original chassis or a replacement?  Which original chassis was discarded?Huh??? The Registry does not recognize Gallant's 2301 as the real Cobra since Stan Falor's 2301/2260 was retitled by Dick D. as 2260?Huh??  Who knows?Huh??


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Cobra Ned
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« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2008, 08:01:27 AM »

The footnote from the '97 registry was based on the data we had up to that point. You will note that each successive registry states that the information in it supercedes any previously-printed material. Hence the upcoming registry will reflect what we have learned since: as I mentioned in a prior post on this thread, the chassis of 2260 was examined thoroughly by at least three Cobra experts in '03. They concluded, independently, that there were no signs that the chassis under the 2260 sheet metal had ever been replaced. They further found a bent sub-frame in the rear of the car precisely where 2260 had been hit at Spa in 5/65 when being driven by John Whitmore that had gone unrepaired. In the event the chassis to the car had been replaced with a new one, there would have been no damage to it at all, since Radford did not race the car after the mechanic, Pip Preece, announced that this work had been carried out. I suspect his plan was to build up the value of the car. In fact, the car Radford sold to Stanley Falor of Pittsburgh, whose purchase documents are dated 7/18/67, using the paperwork from 2301, was identified as 2301 only by a crudely-written number on the windshield. Everything else said 2260. As you may know, Falor did buy the car to race it, and the proximity of Pittsburgh to Cumberland, MD is self-evident, so the photo from 5/67 is of Falor racing the car "as-bought." He sold it to Ed Lowther in '68, and then there were a succession of owners and different levels of restoration until purchased in '03 by Bowman Motors of Redwood City, CA. They restored the car properly, and chose to reuse the Radford team colors of Viking Blue with red stripes at the front, just as in the Cumberland photo. As for the idea that usable parts of 2260 and 2301 were combined on a new chassis, this originated fully with Pip Preece, not John Sparrow or any other Radford Racing partners, and it was based on Preece's signed statement that this misinformation was used, in the belief it was factual. It has since been DISPROVED beyond any doubt, and 2260 in fact never received a new chassis, and had only minor portions of its body work repaired and even lesser amounts replaced.

As for 2301, this is the car that was destroyed at Brands Hatch in 5/66. It was crashed severely enough that the Radford team was only able to salvage various small mechanical items from it before they scrapped it. (Supposedly, it was left on a farm belonging to one of the Radford partners, and efforts have recently been made to retrieve it. More on that down the road.) Meanwhile, in the '70s two replicas were built, one in the US based on the leftover paperwork from Stan Falor's purchase once a later owner decided it was stupid to keep calling a car that was clearly 2260 by the wrong number. New papers were obtained properly calling the ex-Falor car CSX 2260. But the 2301 papers remained, and were traded around until a new car claiming the 2301 identity was constructed. Essentially the same thing occurred in Europe, when Brian Angliss approached John Sparrow in '77 and suggested that since Radford had owned two cars, but only sold one, the opportunity to buy whatever remained of the second one must still exist. So, some various Cobra parts were rounded up and the box of items was duly sold as "all that remains of CSX 2301." Angliss then built up a new car which remains in Europe.

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« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2008, 12:13:51 PM »

Here are some quotes on the Radford Racing Cobra 2260, driven by Harry Digby at Spa 500km 5/16/1965, from Micheal Shoen's book, "The Cobra-Ferrari Wars."

Bob Bondurant; "We were lapping those hills, nose to tail when we came up on a slower Cobra roadster.  He was backing off, so I slowed down and pulled over.  But Whitmore just drove straight, never backed off---complete brain fade.  Whitmore knocked him clear across the road where he hit the bridge, came back, just missed me and hit the other side.  Somebody could have been killed.  So that wiped out the front of John's car, and I just waved at him as I went by and thought, 'One more for us."

"Whitemore saw it differently: "We had settled down to what we had hoped would be a steady race when this idiot pulled across in front of me just after the kink in Masta straight.  He had pulled out to line up for the next corner and I only had time to get absolutely square before hitting him straight up the back.  I remember the rather ludicrous sight of this roadster accelerating away in front of me and disappearing over the bank on one side, then leaping back up and across the road and down the bank on the other side."

The Whitmore Daytona Coupe photo below is also from Michael Shoen's book.



So there's probably more damage to 2260 than just a mere shunt to the rear.

As a side note here is a photo of 2301 in the movie "Les aventures de Michael Vaillant," released on 4/30/1967.



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