The Official SAAC Forum

The History => Shelby American History => Topic started by: SFM66H on April 21, 2014, 09:58:49 AM



Title: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on April 21, 2014, 09:58:49 AM
I now know that George Watters is known by SAAC HQ, but I'm not sure how many of us here in the Forum know who he is.
To be honest, I only recently 'met' him when he "pm'd" me thru the Forum - he had noticed some comments I had posted about how much I liked some LAX and Hi-Performance Motors photos.
He said that he had some photos that I likely had never seen before, and that he would email some to me if I wanted them & to provide my email address to him if I wanted them.
DID I WANT THEM? - well I was just floored by his kind and generous offer - I had never experienced anything like that before, and I thanked him for the offer & provided my email address.
What he sent me just blew me away because of how thrilling it was for me to see original Shelby American photos that I had never seen before, it's like re-living the excitement from the '70's when SAAC first started out and began publishing photos from the '60's that we hadn't seen before.

So we began email correspondence and learned that we are both really into these SA photos. One thing led to another, and he offered to actually send me some of his photos so I could scan them for my files - WHO DOES THAT?? - George Watters did that. When I saw them, I thought right away about the Forum - where else would photos like these be more appreciated and correctly preserved for posterity? I approached him about that and he was in agreement to share some of them here with us all. I thought about the best way to do that, and I hoped that keeping them all together in the same thread is the best idea. Even though they are of different types of cars and subject matter, I thought that keeping them together in the SHELBY AMERICAN HISTORY catagory would make them easier to find when you were looking for the latest addition. If they would be split up into their respective catagories, I thought they would be harder to look for once they rotated out of the main Forum 'new' screen.

So with that, and with George's knowledge and permission, I'm posting the first photo from what we're calling the 'George Watters Collection'.
Check the SHELBY AMERICAN HISTORY catagory & the GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION thread when you want to see if there's anything new, as they'll be posted there as time permits.
Thank you George, for your kindness and generosity - we all thank you!

Kieth Champine


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on April 21, 2014, 10:05:57 AM
Here's one that George said is one of his favorites - "A '66 Carryover Car at Riverside".

I love the purity and simplicity of this no LeMans stripe, MFR plate car.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Carryover_car_at_Riverside_%28MFR_plate%29_b.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: vernonestes on April 21, 2014, 10:17:51 AM
George is certainly a class act  Chug a Lug


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Kiwi on April 21, 2014, 01:07:04 PM
So, the most obvious question is yet to be answered … who is George Watters?

Was he an official photographer for Shelby American, an automotive magazine journalist of the time, just a car enthusiast who regularly attended events/races, or what?


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on April 21, 2014, 01:21:51 PM
       kiwi,
      George is a long time enthusiast and multi Shelby owner. Some of his past cars include a perfect ( IMHO at least) R Model restoratnion , 5R528 as I remember. 40+ years ago many ex employees were still alive and receptive to enthusiastic "kids" that were enjoying the cars they built. George did alot of research over the years he spent reastoring the R model and I'm sure he ran into lots of interesting things while doing it. These were days before the internet so items/finds like this tended to remain unknown. I too have some obscure things from wayyyy back then.
      Randy


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: shlby66 on April 21, 2014, 01:47:50 PM
George is certainly a class act  Chug a Lug

     + 1 That is certainly true.

      George Watters, had 5R528, at 100 Point Restorations, in Manasquan, New Jersey in the early 80's for restoration work
      by Chris Liebenberg ( currently the Curator for 3 Dog Garage in PA. ). There were 2 other R-Models, besides 5R528 there
      at the same time. I enjoyed the opportunity to wrench on all of them at various times. :)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on April 21, 2014, 01:53:59 PM
     That was back when "diamond tread" Goodyear race tires were still around.
 It's hard to beat period ( non staged) photos like the carryover at Riverside. No fluff , real "used" company car by the plate.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: vernonestes on April 21, 2014, 03:10:01 PM

I love the purity and simplicity of this no LeMans stripe, MFR plate car.


Gotta love those MFG plates...the DLR plates are cool too I guess  Camera

(http://i778.photobucket.com/albums/yy64/vernonestes/plates_zps8ff57986.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: 06 GT on April 21, 2014, 04:16:39 PM
George is a Hollywood sound guy who won the oscar for sound editing in Hunt for Red October.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0099810/awards


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Pmustang on April 21, 2014, 10:37:40 PM
What a photo!

Thanks for sharing

Peter


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on April 22, 2014, 09:39:50 AM
Here is Jerry Titus in 5R002 at Pomona on March 6, 1965.
This photo was given to George around 30 years ago by a guy he knew that was an amateur photographer and a Shelby fan.
He doesn't think he gave it to anyone else either, so it is a very rare photo.

I really like the HI-PERFORMANCE MOTORS lettering with it's first address.
This photo is so appropriate to be seen right now, with 5R002 being currently on tour.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Jerry_Titus___5R002_at_Pomona_%283-6-65%29.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: 5S003 on April 22, 2014, 09:46:02 AM
Those were the days, you could leave the passenger side window rolled down and just walk away , maybe it was going to be hot that day? Looks like a tee shirt or windbreaker over the passenger seat. Can't tell if there is a rear seat or shelf? Is it too difficult to blow up the paper on the front windshield , almost looks like the Riverside layout? The other car next to the GT350 doesn't seem to have one. Wonder if the guy in the background is going to steal the factory license plate frame, hopefully his wife will stop him.
If in fact it is a carry over car, anyone want to dig into the Registry for the first 252 cars and see which ones were company cars with Cragars and no LeMans stripes.......just a thought, wonder if we could figure out whose car this was?

Best,
Mark


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Brant on April 22, 2014, 10:30:25 AM

If in fact it is a carry over car, anyone want to dig into the Registry for the first 252 cars and see which ones were company cars with Cragars and no LeMans stripes.......just a thought, wonder if we could figure out whose car this was?

Best,
Mark

Steve (6S087) has probably already done that.  :)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: 5S003 on April 22, 2014, 11:13:41 AM
Yes, I would think so ...... pcorn


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: 5S003 on April 22, 2014, 11:20:30 AM
Yes, if memory serves me which is probably not the case, Pomona was 002's second race, first one with Titus.  Here you can see the rear tie down for the car which makes sense to have . Also we can go back and see if in the Green Valley shots if the green tech inspection sticker was present on the roll bar or if this was the sticker for Pomona. Guess Titus did not need a exterior rear view mirror , pretty sure he finished in 1 st place at Pomona, one of many.     


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: acman63 on April 22, 2014, 11:34:41 AM
So, the most obvious question is yet to be answered … who is George Watters?

Was he an official photographer for Shelby American, an automotive magazine journalist of the time, just a car enthusiast who regularly attended events/races, or what?

If I recall correctly , he worked for Paramount studios and was the head sound guy.  Good guy  just an enthusiast


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Rodster-500 on April 22, 2014, 05:57:31 PM
Great pictures!  Thanks for sharing.  Chug a Lug


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: car 26-JD on April 22, 2014, 11:00:09 PM
Thanks to both of you for sharing, looking forward to seeing more...


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on April 23, 2014, 09:51:10 AM
We've all seen the more common, widely published pictures of the Shelby transport trucks - but how about this particular version?
This photo of George's is what I made up a term for - 'The Forgotten Photos'.
They are usually less cropped and rich with background details - this one is priceless.
They are transporting the early '66's here, but of interest is that there are still '65's on the left of the photo.
And it's all LeMans top stripes in this photo - a lot of times you can hardly find a car WITH them.
When's the last time you saw the '6501' address numbers at West Imperial Highway? - I never had.
And check out that great sign on the gate advertising Hi-Performance Motors at its' first location on La Brea.
I'll next post a close-up of that sign, as the photo gets reduced here when posted & is hard to read.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/The_Gate_at_LAX.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on April 23, 2014, 09:55:10 AM
Here's a closeup of the HPM sign on the gate:

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/The_Guard_House_at_LAX.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on April 23, 2014, 10:42:59 AM
    It's interesting to note as well the '65s on the left while '66s are on the truck being shipped!


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Wedgeman on April 23, 2014, 01:12:20 PM
While viewing these cars all with stripes,I am curious... are there any pics of... HERTZ... cars being shipped??


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on April 23, 2014, 02:05:31 PM
   If they were shipping carryovers ( as I guess those on the trucks to be) the Hertz program wasn't "inked" yet. JMPO
       Randy


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: acman63 on April 23, 2014, 02:26:21 PM
    It's interesting to note as well the '65s on the left while '66s are on the truck being shipped!

Maybe those 65s  are cars that havent had the 1/4 windows installed yet


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Wedgeman on April 23, 2014, 05:36:35 PM
Randy, I was referring to after Hertz placed their order, were any photos taken of the Hertz cars being shipped......eh?.... pcorn


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: camp upshur on April 23, 2014, 05:42:17 PM
 Prolly 1965s w vents.
(photo below future carryovers sans vents prior to rework)

That pic has it all:

-1965's;
-1966's;
-Steels;
-Cragers;
-West Imperial;
-HPM;
-Transporters (who have their own fan base).

Interesting how the cars being pushed out the door ALL have Cragers, yet there didn't seem to be a Crager overrage.
hmm....


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Don Johnston on April 23, 2014, 07:16:01 PM
Past the line of 65s next to the building is a "Cobra" labeled truck?

These are amazing photos to review.



Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: KenFirch on April 23, 2014, 09:28:48 PM
Maybe a picture of the same load taken before this one.   Looks like same driver wearing the same shirt.

(http://carryovergt350.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/on-transporterlevel.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: 2112 on April 23, 2014, 09:54:54 PM

-Transporters (who have their own fan base).


I think they are cool as hell.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: GT350CS on April 24, 2014, 06:56:02 AM
sfm6s524:

If you look close at the license plate on the right side it appears to be the same truck indeed.  Very well could be the same day.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on April 24, 2014, 07:21:48 AM
    Wedgeman ,
        Yes I have seen a similar photo of the SAI truck with Hertz cars on it. I can't remember where , but I have seen one.
        Randy


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: 427heaven on April 24, 2014, 07:26:03 AM
Why would Jerry sign the door?


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Coralsnake on April 24, 2014, 08:39:45 AM
I think the High Performance Motors building was literally blocks away from the airport.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on April 24, 2014, 08:48:21 AM
   427 heaven,
         that was how he "rolled". Signed his name on the door.


    Pete ,
      You're right , about one mile away! There were other local dealers as well.
    Randy


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on April 24, 2014, 09:08:50 AM
Here are George's own words with the story of this great photo:

"A friend of mine took this great candid picture of Ken Miles arriving to work at the 6501 Imperial Hwy. Factory in 1965. As you can see, it is a '65 GT 350 with no top stripes. It brings back many memories for me. In 1965 my High School class took a tour of the Factory. The highlight was that when we were parking our cars in the front lot, who walks by but Ken Miles himself. We said Hi and he said the same. I can still remember that he was wearing a short sleeve white shirt and a thin black tie just like in the picture. We got a great tour thru the entire Factory including the Race Shop and the Street Car assembly line. I remember in the Race Shop they showed us a Daytona Coupe, Ford GT, Comp Cobra and a Race Version GT 350. We also walked out back and saw all the cars lined up in front of the Blast Wall. Along the tour we were able to ask our guide many questions. When we were done, he took us to the small office building in front and when we walked in, there was a table loaded with all sorts of literature!! He told us to take what we wanted. I took one of everything, and to this day I still have it all. They will always be special, knowing they came from the source!! Even though it has been almost 50 years since that most exciting day, it remains so vivid in my mind. Whenever I am down by LAX I still drive by the old Factory and when I am flying out I always sit on the left side of the plane so I can look down when we take off and see Shelby American!!"

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Ken_Miles_arriving_at_6501_W__Imperial_Hwy.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on April 24, 2014, 09:24:25 AM
     Another awesome shot! No side mirror OR Cragars. Very cool.
      Randy


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on April 24, 2014, 09:34:59 AM
I think the High Performance Motors building was literally blocks away from the airport.

George Watters is the HI-PERFORMANCE MOTORS Expert as he is from the area and has been to both locations many times.

An important clarification to be made here is that HPM's first location at 1150 S. La Brea was approximately 10 miles away from LAX, just south of Hollywood.
And it's second location at 901 N. Sepulveda was in fact blocks away from LAX.

I'm currently learning how to capture Google Earth satellite images, and with George's help in pinpointing the HPM locations, these could be posted here as well.
I share George's fascination with all things HPM, and am very anxious to finally learn their locations myself!


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on April 24, 2014, 09:40:57 AM
            Yes I have seen a similar photo of the SAI truck with Hertz cars on it. I can't remember where , but I have seen one.
        Randy

Randy - I had never even heard of the Hertz cars on the SAI truck photo, but sure would like to see it!
            I hope somebody here might remember where it was seen and post it, or point us in a direction to look for it.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: acman63 on April 24, 2014, 09:50:20 AM
Ive seen it somewhere as well.   Does anyone know how far the Shelby trucks delivered cars. Were they used within a specific range or nationwide?


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: vernonestes on April 24, 2014, 10:14:03 AM
Ive seen it somewhere as well.   Does anyone know how far the Shelby trucks delivered cars. Were they used within a specific range or nationwide?


Ive seen pictures of the Cobra Caravan delivering cars on the East coast. THey would stick a car on the Caravan truck if it was cost effective to do so if they had someone who bought a car in the location that the truck was going to. For some reason I want to say that the Shelby trucks went nationwide but dont hold me to that.

Best regards,
Vern


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on April 24, 2014, 01:00:04 PM
    Jim,
       I'll ask Bernie K , he should remember. My recollection was only the western states that were within a days travel , but I could be wrong.
     Randy


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Bob Gaines on April 24, 2014, 01:24:55 PM
Here are George's own words with the story of this great photo:

"A friend of mine took this great candid picture of Ken Miles arriving to work at the 6501 Imperial Hwy. Factory in 1965. As you can see, it is a '65 GT 350 with no top stripes. It brings back many memories for me. In 1965 my High School class took a tour of the Factory. The highlight was that when we were parking our cars in the front lot, who walks by but Ken Miles himself. We said Hi and he said the same. I can still remember that he was wearing a short sleeve white shirt and a thin black tie just like in the picture. We got a great tour thru the entire Factory including the Race Shop and the Street Car assembly line. I remember in the Race Shop they showed us a Daytona Coupe, Ford GT, Comp Cobra and a Race Version GT 350. We also walked out back and saw all the cars lined up in front of the Blast Wall. Along the tour we were able to ask our guide many questions. When we were done, he took us to the small office building in front and when we walked in, there was a table loaded with all sorts of literature!! He told us to take what we wanted. I took one of everything, and to this day I still have it all. They will always be special, knowing they came from the source!! Even though it has been almost 50 years since that most exciting day, it remains so vivid in my mind. Whenever I am down by LAX I still drive by the old Factory and when I am flying out I always sit on the left side of the plane so I can look down when we take off and see Shelby American!!"

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Ken_Miles_arriving_at_6501_W__Imperial_Hwy.jpg)
Picture and words made my day. ;D


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Coralsnake on April 24, 2014, 01:33:40 PM
+1

Best part of our hobby is when these things come up and people share them without any expectations attached.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: car 26-JD on April 24, 2014, 01:48:05 PM
+1
Best part of our hobby is when these things come up and people share them without any expectations attached.

Picture and words made my day. ;D

Yes!


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: camp upshur on April 24, 2014, 03:08:12 PM

Although probably a pool car, it would be most interesting if Ken Miles had a particular 1965 GT-350 assigned to him as a company car.

In today's wacky collector world , it'd probably double the car's value!


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on April 24, 2014, 04:04:37 PM
    Check the registry , I think there is a note about one. Bet it has stripes and Cragars now Chug a Lug


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: 06 GT on April 24, 2014, 04:41:12 PM
As of a couple years ago the LaBrea address still had the original buildings. The other has a large office building there now.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Coralsnake on April 25, 2014, 06:34:05 AM
Did some need help capturing a google image?


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on April 25, 2014, 07:48:09 AM
Did some need help capturing a google image?

Well, I think I've got it, but it frustrated me because I can't capture the images on Google Maps, which shows the street names.
I can capture them on Google Earth, but those don't show the street names.
So I've been adding the streets to Google Earth images that I have confirmed in Google Maps.
I'm sure it's some setting I don't have correctly checked or correct in Google Earth - or something...


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on April 25, 2014, 09:51:55 AM
Next is a photo from George's collection of 5R001 at Riverside.

What astounds me is that unusual feature in the grille opening area.
In all the other photos I have seen of 5R001, I had never seen that before - I hope the R-Model experts here shed some light on it.

The next posts will be an enlargement of that feature and after that another photo of 5R001 here that shows the same thing from a different angle.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/5R001_at_Riverside.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on April 25, 2014, 09:53:56 AM
An enlargement of that unusual feature:

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/The_unusual_grille_area_feature_of_5R001.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on April 25, 2014, 09:56:44 AM
And another photo taken by a friend of George's of 5R001 at Riverside showing that same feature from a different angle:

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/5R001_at_Riverside_Raceway.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: iamcanadian on April 25, 2014, 10:30:55 AM
And another photo taken by a friend of George's of 5R001 at Riverside showing that unusual feature from a different angle:

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/5R001_at_Riverside_Raceway.jpg)

That's quite a significant bow in the hood! Really great pictures - thanks for sharing these.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: 06 GT on April 25, 2014, 03:40:47 PM
That's quite a significant bow in the hood! Really great pictures - thanks for sharing these.

Larry Zane complained how much it cost him to get the bow out of the hood then realized it was correct with it.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on April 25, 2014, 04:24:06 PM
Larry Zane complained how much it cost him to get the bow out of the hood then realized it was correct with it.

Do you happen to know if Larry has any recollection or information about these 'bulges' in the grille area?
I have a color photo in my 5R001 file that shows it too, but I had never noticed them before until I saw George's good profile photo above.
So now I have 3 photos of it at this Riverside event with these 'grille bulges' - all 3 photos also show the unusual position on the doors of the #36 B, which is different than all other photos of it wearing that same race number.
An attempt at aerodynamics??

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/The_unusual_grille_area_feature_of_5R001.jpg)
[/quote


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: richstang on April 25, 2014, 05:52:09 PM
These are all such great photos your sharing with us, Thank You and especially to George!

On this last photo of 001 at Riverside...is this race on 10/30/65 nationals with Miles driving the #36/GT350 and Spencer driving the #98/Cobra?
I've never seen those grille covers either. Your guess that it was an attempt to divert air around that inverted portion of the nose sound reasonable.


In the photo of the 2 car carriers (and cars to the left all with lemans stripes) it looks like those cars to the left don't have any reverse lights.
Would that confirm them as 65's and not 66's that didn't have the quarter windows added?


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: camp upshur on April 25, 2014, 09:39:41 PM


No it does not.

Neither 1965 nor 1966 (Carryover) GT-350s had back up lights.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on April 26, 2014, 07:28:34 AM
These are all such great photos your sharing with us, Thank You and especially to George!

On this last photo of 001 at Riverside...is this race on 10/30/65 nationals with Miles driving the #36/GT350 and Spencer driving the #98/Cobra?

richstang - That's a good question, I would like to know as well - the 10/30/65 date that you suggest is more than I had.
                 The Registry only lists a date of 9/5/65 at Santa Barbara, but no dates on its' other races.
                 I hope KRANKY or someone can give us the driver and the CSX# of the Cobra too.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: richstang on April 26, 2014, 11:14:54 AM

No it does not.

Neither 1965 nor 1966 (Carryover) GT-350s had back up lights.

Thanks for clearing that up.
 Chug a Lug
I've seen numerous 66 GT350's with back up lamps. Not being very familiar with the "1966 carryover" models I didn't know they didn't have them.
 :knock


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: richstang on April 26, 2014, 11:17:23 AM
richstang - That's a good question, I would like to know as well - the 10/30/65 date that you suggest is more than I had.
                 The Registry only lists a date of 9/5/65 at Santa Barbara, but no dates on its' other races.
                 I hope KRANKY or someone can give us the driver and the CSX# of the Cobra too.

Looking at the "racing sports cars" site (I know it's not always accurate) they list 3 races with both AP & BP running in 1965 at Riverside.
1) 10/30/1965 SCCA Regional
2) 9/26/1965 SCCA Regional
3) 4/18/1965 SCCA National


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: KRANKY on April 26, 2014, 01:53:54 PM
All right, here's comes my best guess....the event is the 10/30/1965 Riverside Times GP weekend.  Ken Miles is at the wheel of #36 R-model and Lothar Motschenbacher is at the wheel of the #98 Cobra (2431....the reason for this guess is the black roll bar, Kens traditional #98 and also the twin white tapered stripes to the nose....but its hard to tell without seeing and side profile shots).  Lew Spencer has a different helmet and goggle combination.  You can rule the 9/26/1965 event out also....right number for the R-model (#36-Titus driving), but the wrong color helmet....Titus had a lighter colored helmet (white or silver??) and the driver of the R-model looks to have a dark colored helmet....

The following is a link to a color photo from the same event:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1965-RIVERSIDE-SCCA-SHELBY-GT350-SHELBY-COBRA-SCCA-CAN-AM-8X12-PHOTO-/231129190863?pt=US_Racing_Fan_Shop&hash=item35d05f91cf

Kranky


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: 2112 on April 26, 2014, 03:11:55 PM
Color photo makes it easier to see the curved plastic taped to the headlight buckets.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Jeff Nichols on April 26, 2014, 07:33:20 PM
Kranky, wasn't Lothar's Cobra Silver??,, or was he driving for Shelby that day? (I was there that day but don't have a program, so no details).


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: KRANKY on April 26, 2014, 08:23:15 PM
To Jeff:

Correct, Lothar's 427 Cobra was silver (3012....it was returned to the Factory sometime during the autumn of 1965)....but the #98 Cobra is one of the Factory team Cobras with Lothar at the wheel....it's in one of the support races for the Times GP that weekend.  In the late November 1965 issue of Competition Press, there is a photo that is captioned with Lothar in the #98 Team Cobra lead by the #45 Cobra of Lew Spencer (2129-the white "Trouser Snake")....other Cobras in attendance in the support race are: Fred Whitehead in the #27 silver Cobra (Ebay photo) and also listed on the entry list are #63 Cobra (2239-Fred Sutherland) and #6 Cobra (2363-James Phillips).  #91 Cobra (3009) driven by Dick Thompson was entered in the Times GP against all of the Can-Am sports racers.  Lothar was scheduled to drive a car in the Times Gp, but it didn't work out that way....

Kranky


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on April 27, 2014, 03:51:05 PM

                 I hope KRANKY or someone can give us the driver and the CSX# of the Cobra too.
All right, here's comes my best guess....the event is the 10/30/1965 Riverside Times GP weekend.  Ken Miles is at the wheel of #36 R-model and Lothar Motschenbacher is at the wheel of the #98 Cobra (2431....the reason for this guess is the black roll bar, Kens traditional #98 and also the twin white tapered stripes to the nose....but its hard to tell without seeing and side profile shots).  Lew Spencer has a different helmet and goggle combination.  You can rule the 9/26/1965 event out also....right number for the R-model (#36-Titus driving), but the wrong color helmet....Titus had a lighter colored helmet (white or silver??) and the driver of the R-model looks to have a dark colored helmet....

Kranky

Thanks KRANKY - nice job, as always.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on April 27, 2014, 04:27:36 PM
This would be a good place to post this great color photo from George's collection - one that I've never seen before.
It's of Ken Miles in CSX2431 with Ron Butler at Riverside.

I believe the following additional info is correct, but if anyone knows better, I can edit the post.
The 'X' taped on '2431's door tells me it's at the Riverside USRRC on May 2, 1965.
Behind Miles is Lothar Motschenbacher's CSX3012 as #1 and Ed Leslie's CSX2488 as #2.

Nice details are the Cobra sticker in 2431's roundel and the color of CSX3012's #1 numeral - it appears red, which I did not know previously.
(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Ken_Miles_at_Riverside_USRRC_%285-2-65%29.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on April 28, 2014, 07:48:52 AM
   That is definitly Miles in 001. Titus didn't sit as high in the seat and his jaw wasn't as pronounced. LOL


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on April 28, 2014, 09:07:58 AM
Here's one that George bought 35-40 years ago, along with 5 or 6 other photographs.
It is an original photo on thicker paper, not a modern day copy.
It was taken inside Shelby American in 1965 or 1966.

Of real interest is how the centers of the Halibrand wheels are painted black:

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Taken_inside_Shelby_American_%281965_or_1966%29.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: richstang on April 28, 2014, 10:33:45 AM
This would be a good place to post this great color photo from George's collection - one that I've never seen before.
It's of Ken Miles in CSX2431 with Ron Butler at Riverside.

I believe the following additional info is correct, but if anyone knows better, I can edit the post.
The 'X' taped on '2431's door tells me it's at the Riverside USRRC on May 2, 1965.
Behind Miles is Lothar Motschenbacher's CSX3012 as #1 and Ed Leslie's CSX2488 as #2.

Nice details are the Cobra sticker in 2431's roundel and the color of CSX3012's #1 numeral - it appears red, which I did not know previously.
(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Ken_Miles_at_Riverside_USRRC_%285-2-65%29.jpg)

I believe there were two races that day with the following;
-The O2L race had #1 csx3012 Lowther and #98 csx3002 Miles
-The GT race had #98 csx2431 Miles, #97 csx2558 Johnson, #2 csx2488 Leslie.
There is some info that suggests Leslie also drove the #96 csx2494 at Riverside on 5/2/65. Is this possible? Perhaps it was just in practice?


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on April 29, 2014, 10:03:33 AM
Here is another great photo from George's collection that I had never seen before.
He said it was taken around the time of his Factory Tour and that it was just before school let out for the summer.

It's of Lew Spencer and an unidentified passenger in CSX2431 at Shelby American's Open House on June 8, 1965 (I believe the date is correct...)
It's the best view I've ever seen of '2431's oil cooler scoop opening, which looks slightly different to me than some of the other Team Cobras.
There's a lot to look at, including Daytona Coupe CSX2286 in the background on a trailer.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Lew_Spencer_in_CSX2431_at_SAI_Open_House.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: KRANKY on April 29, 2014, 10:31:40 AM
Thanks 66....the red 427 Cobra looks to be the photo shoot/magazine Cobra....
Kranky


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on April 29, 2014, 01:13:29 PM
    My guess on the passenger is David E Davis the magazine guy. Longtime Shelby buddy.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: camp upshur on April 29, 2014, 01:36:27 PM

With Lew Spencer is Ray Suarez longtime host of 'The Newshour on PBS with Jim Lehrer" in a remarkably prescient moment. (TIC)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on April 29, 2014, 10:48:30 PM
Thanks 66....the red 427 Cobra looks to be the photo shoot/magazine Cobra....
Kranky

KRANKY - I agree, and believe that you mean CSX3101?


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on April 30, 2014, 08:43:12 AM
Since CSX2286 was in the background of the previous post, here it is as the main subject of a photo at the Shelby American Open House - June 1965.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/CSX2286_at_Shelby_American_Open_House.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Rodster-500 on April 30, 2014, 09:16:42 AM
Wow, great pictures!  Chug a Lug

Next best thing to a time travel machine.  ;)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: richstang on May 01, 2014, 08:19:11 AM
Since CSX2286 was in the background of the previous post, here it is as the main subject of a photo at the Shelby American Open House - June 1965.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/CSX2286_at_Shelby_American_Open_House.jpg)

Another great photo!
Thanks for the added info. I always wondered what the CSX was for this No2 car and when the photo was taken.
 Chug a Lug


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on May 01, 2014, 09:00:47 AM
Another great photo!
Thanks for the added info. I always wondered what the CSX was for this No2 car and when the photo was taken.
 

richstang - The Coupes wearing race numbers 1 (CSX2286) & 2 (CSX2287) during this time used to mess me up too until I noticed their clues for proof of identity.
                 My information of them in this time frame as #1 & #2 is that this is how they looked just prior to leaving for Le Mans in June 1965.
                 Stay tuned in here, there are a couple more incredible Coupe photos in George's collection to show you what I mean.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on May 01, 2014, 09:22:26 AM
Here is a great closeup of Ken Miles in CSX2431 at Riverside in May, 1965.
It was taken at the same race as the previously posted photo of Ken and Ron Butler in the pits at Riverside.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Ken_Miles_at_Riverside_-_May_1965.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on May 02, 2014, 08:19:40 AM
In George's collection is this rarely seen view of CSX2287 at LAX in June of 1965.
This photograph was taken behind the Sales Office, which was located between the two hangars - so the coupe is facing West Imperial Highway here.
There are more widely seen and published photos of its' profile as #2 at LAX that show its' non-typical (for Daytona Coupes), almost straight exiting side exhaust.
That is shown to good advantage here, to the right of the trailer license plate.
Also seen well here is an identifying feature of '2287, its' straight-edged rear spoiler.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/CSX2287_at_Shelby_American.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Paul H on May 03, 2014, 06:45:57 AM
Thanks for posting these excellent pictures and thanks Kranky for clarifying Ken Miles in the Shelby Mustang at Riverside. I always thought it was just the Green Valley race in Texas that he did in one of these cars. Incidentally do you know where Miles finished in the Riverside race?
Paul


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: richstang on May 03, 2014, 11:26:10 AM
Thanks for posting these excellent pictures and thanks Kranky for clarifying Ken Miles in the Shelby Mustang at Riverside. I always thought it was just the Green Valley race in Texas that he did in one of these cars. Incidentally do you know where Miles finished in the Riverside race?
Paul
Miles was listed with the GT350 as 1st place BP in Riverside 10/30/65. I'm not sure what his overall position was.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: richstang on May 03, 2014, 11:49:07 AM
In George's collection is this rarely seen view of CSX2287 at Shelby American, I believe at LAX in June 1965.
There are more widely seen and published photos of its' profile as #2 at LAX that show its' non-typical (for Daytona Coupes), almost straight exiting side exhaust.
That is shown to good advantage here, to the right of the trailer license plate.
Also seen well here is an identifying feature of '2287, its' straight-edged rear spoiler.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/CSX2287_at_Shelby_American.jpg)

Another great photo! I've always spotted 2287 by the lower front roof line and straight cut door and hood lines. Good to know the specifics on the spoiler and exhaust as well.
 Chug a Lug

I've just read that open house was from June 6-8th. The 6th was Shelby employees & families, 7th was Ford reps, and the 8th was for the press.
Info found on; http://1965gt350mustang.com/history.html

With the 1965 24hrs of Le Mans starting on the 20th they would have shipped (TWA) over between June 9-19th. Anyone know the exact dates?


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: 2112 on May 03, 2014, 12:12:07 PM
Here is another great photo from George's collection that I had never seen before.
He said it was taken around the time of his Factory Tour and that it was just before school let out for the summer.

It's of Lew Spencer and an unidentified passenger in CSX2431 at Shelby American's Open House on June 8, 1965 (I believe the date is correct...)
It's the best view I've ever seen of '2431's oil cooler scoop opening, which looks slightly different to me than some of the other Team Cobras.
There's a lot to look at, including Daytona Coupe CSX2286 in the background on a trailer.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Lew_Spencer_in_CSX2431_at_SAI_Open_House.jpg)


Does anyone know the real identity of the passenger? I am fairly certain it is not Ray Suarez.
.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on May 03, 2014, 04:00:32 PM
Here is a photo that is not of the clarity we would like, but is so remarkable because of it's one of those 'forgotten photos' that I like so much.
I was taken by a friend of George's in 1965, and it's of one of my favorite subjects: Anything taken at LAX.
A lot of interesting details are in this one too - most cars have the top stripes, not positive if all have the rear GT350 badge and there is a mix of '65 wheels.
I wonder if the car on jackstands may be having the Cragar wheels installed?

And I've always wondered if anybody has one of the black plastic door protectors shown here - I don't know if they ever made it past dealer prep to delivery - I just think it would be really cool to have one.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/1965_GT350_group_photo_at_LAX.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on May 03, 2014, 04:08:02 PM
I've just read that open house was from June 6-8th. The 6th was Shelby employees & families, 7th was Ford reps, and the 8th was for the press.
Info found on; http://1965gt350mustang.com/history.html

richstang - Thanks for the clarification on the Open House dates.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Paul H on May 04, 2014, 03:42:33 AM
Thanks Richstang  :)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: camp upshur on May 04, 2014, 06:48:37 AM
 

SFM66H,

1. Thank you for sharing these outstanding photos.

2. I do not want to drift your thread, however regarding your interest in 'Anything taken at LAX' in the context of Shelby American circa 1965, you may find this of interest:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/thehenryford/sets/72157629443828287/page2/

of note is that: none of these pics were taken at SAI, rather at the TWA cargo facility just north of the approach end of 25R whereas SAI was south of midfield 25L (some Venice pics are in this mix also).

By the numbers on the vehicles it appears this was the load-out to LeMans 1965 (19-20 June 65) immmediatly after the Press Day 6-8 June 1965.

Best


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on May 04, 2014, 10:59:44 AM
camp upshur -



SFM66H,

1. Thank you for sharing these outstanding photos.
    All thanks goes to George Watters for sharing his photos with me, which started this thread in the first place.
 
2. I do not want to drift your thread, however regarding your interest in 'Anything taken at LAX' in the context of Shelby American circa 1965, you may find this of interest:


https://www.flickr.com/photos/thehenryford/sets/72157629443828287/page2/
  This is a very good link and I really appreciate you posting it here - although I have seen those, I thank you again!     
 
of note is that: none of these pics were taken at SAI, rather at the TWA cargo facility just north of the approach end of 25R whereas SAI was south of midfield 25L (some Venice pics are in this mix also).

By the numbers on the vehicles it appears this was the load-out to LeMans 1965 (19-20 June 65) immmediatly after the Press Day 6-8 June 1965.

Best


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on May 05, 2014, 09:09:51 AM
Here's one for '67 fans - and LAX fans - and well, for everyone.
George didn't have any additional info on this great photo, so I'll ask for it from the members here.
It looks to me like it could be an out-take from the 1967 Shelby Press Introduction at LAX or something (I don't know what it was called).

There's a round sticker on the vent window of the white car behind CS - I wonder if that is still from the Ford assembly line?
And the white car directly above its roof where the 2 guys are standing - does it look to you like it still has a standard Mustang grille opening shape?

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Carroll_Shelby_at_LAX_-_1967_Shelby_Intro.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: torch40 on May 05, 2014, 09:14:06 AM
This thread is amazing. Keep em coming...


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: car 26-JD on May 05, 2014, 09:23:21 AM
Here's one for '67 fans - and LAX fans - and well, for everyone.
George didn't have any additional info on this great photo, so I'll ask for it from the members here.
It looks to me like it could be an out-take from the 1967 Shelby Press Introduction at LAX or something (I don't know what it was called).

There's a round sticker on the vent window of the white car behind CS - I wonder if that is still from the Ford assembly line?
And the white car directly above its roof where the 2 guys are standing - does it look to you like it still has a standard Mustang grille opening shape?

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Carroll_Shelby_at_LAX_-_1967_Shelby_Intro.jpg)

Yes, the one white car does look like a stock Mustang.  Note the car behind CS does not have the Rallye stripes with the models designation on it yet but does have the hood and nose.  Also, the papers on the dash, one of those would have the Shelby VIN the last four numbers on it.

Great stuff thanks again for sharing.

JD - car 26


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on May 05, 2014, 09:28:32 AM
Thanks to all, your appreciation for these photos is what makes it worth the time and effort.
And there are more . . . .


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: richstang on May 05, 2014, 04:55:55 PM
Thanks to all, your appreciation for these photos is what makes it worth the time and effort.
And there are more . . . .
I've been looking forward to what's next, I really like the way you post one at a time. It gives each photo more attention and allows those of us interested in the specific subject matter to ask questions or share comments or info.
 Chug a Lug

I agree that the white 67 fastback behind CS is a Mustang. The nose doesn't lean forward enough to be a Shelby. Interesting how most of the cars are lime gold. I'm hoping you might have another photo from that day, or more pictures with some 67's.
 pcorn


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gjz30075 on May 06, 2014, 03:51:39 AM
I love how crisp and sharp these photographs are.     


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on May 06, 2014, 08:14:35 AM
I love how crisp and sharp these photographs are.     

That's what I like about them too, and that's what you get when you scan a good quality photo to begin with.
Scanning an 8 x 10 photograph results in a pretty large image though, and the Forum always resizes them to about 6 x 9, which results in a loss of clarity.
So I resize them first, and then sharpen them before posting, which results in the best quality image here on the Forum.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on May 06, 2014, 09:16:50 AM
This is a photo from George's collection that you may have seen before, but if I recall correctly it was smaller, cropped and not very focused.
And he has additional info about it here - it was taken by a friend of his thru the front fence across from the western hangar.

This photo is so cool though that I'm trying something with it for the first time - I had never figured out how to post multiple photos in the same post before.
The first is the original photo in its entirety (I made it look as good as I possibly could) and the other 2 are cropped closeups for better detail.
George adds that it looks like 4 SC's are parked next to the R-Models, and I can count over 2 dozen 427 Cobras in the background.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/R-Models___427_Cobras_at_LAX.jpg)

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/R-Models_at_LAX.jpg)

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/427_Cobras_at_LAX.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Rodster-500 on May 06, 2014, 07:54:05 PM
Wow, that picture just amazing.  Shells sitting there in line waiting to be finished and no one had any idea how desirable and legendary they would be many years later...


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Swiss_Stang on May 07, 2014, 01:37:09 AM
Thank you so much for posting these fantastic pics. I just can't get enough of them, could sit there for hours and look at them.
I hope that one day pictures in this outstanding quality from A.O. Smith in 1968 will appear.  :partyon


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on May 07, 2014, 08:46:24 AM
Check out this 'time machine' photo - I don't recall ever seeing it before either, and as usual for LAX photos, the background is full of fascinating details.
It seems like it could possibly be the same car with the black Halibrands that was photographed on jackstands inside the Factory in a previous post here, the PR car (possibly CSX3101) that was used in factory photos and literature.

George adds that the 427's on jackstands in the background appear to be the same ones parked in rows in the post before this one and that this is looking west, so the blast wall would be to the far right.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/427_at_LAX.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: acman63 on May 07, 2014, 08:50:49 AM
This is a photo from George's collection that you may have seen before, but if I recall correctly it was smaller, cropped and not very focused.
And he has additional info about it here - it was taken by a friend of his thru the front fence across from the western hangar.

This photo is so cool though that I'm trying something with it for the first time - I had never figured out how to post multiple photos in the same post before.
The first is the original photo in its entirety (I made it look as good as I possibly could) and the other 2 are cropped closeups for better detail.
George adds that it looks like 4 SC's are parked next to the R-Models, and I can count over 2 dozen 427 Cobras in the background.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/R-Models___427_Cobras_at_LAX.jpg)

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/R-Models_at_LAX.jpg)


I think both those futuristic buildings are still there at LAX.  Next time anyone flies in there you can envision where this was
(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/427_Cobras_at_LAX.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on May 07, 2014, 09:33:35 AM
I think both those futuristic buildings are still there at LAX.  Next time anyone flies in there you can envision where this was
(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/427_Cobras_at_LAX.jpg)
George adds that they are still there, but that many other buildings have been built around them.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on May 07, 2014, 09:56:25 AM
    The one on the left was/is a restaurant.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: papa scoops on May 07, 2014, 10:20:44 AM
The ones up on blocks (big blocks?) look like they're from Tacoma... phred


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Don Johnston on May 07, 2014, 10:58:31 AM
The two buildings in the back ground are the revolving restaurant on the left, now surrounded by the main parking structure.  Previously it was an open park of grass and trees.  The building next to it on the right is United Airlines main terminal which has now had extra extensions added.  I flew into LAX in the day the new jet terminal opened in 1961.  In following years I used to strain to look across the runways to see any Shelbys that were running between the buildings as there was an opening in the blast wall.  Great photos!


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Wedgeman on May 07, 2014, 11:04:47 AM
Phred, the small block ones are in the shop trying to find some..........HORSEPOWER .... PeelOut


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: acman63 on May 07, 2014, 01:00:40 PM
No the smallblocks are polishing their trophies for winning everything the last two years  ;D


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on May 08, 2014, 09:14:12 AM
George has some good details about this one.
It's from the Shelby American Open House in June '65, but it looks (at least to me) like a photo that was not circulated much.
It shows 5R001 in back of the Eastern hangar with Jerry Titus affixing its hood pins, and upon magnification it looks like Lew Spencer directly behind Jerry with the white roll in his pocket.
Of interest is that the guy in the white shirt with the beard that was riding with Lew Spencer & CSX2431 in a previous post is seen again in this photo.
It also shows the rear wheel arch modification on 5R001 as well.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/5R001_at_Shelby_American_Open_House.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on May 09, 2014, 08:25:02 AM
Here's a nice photo of a 427 Cobra being serviced at the Shelby American factory.
You can see that the plug wires and positive battery cable are off.
Nice detail on the Stelling & Hellings air cleaners too.
George bets that it's the red 427 that was used in the PR photos - I think so too.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/427_service.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on May 10, 2014, 09:57:11 AM
In keeping with the theme of the previous photo, this photo taken at Shelby American could also be the red PR car, showing a little wear on the driver's seat.
It looks like it has one of those 'Drop In Any Mail Box' fobs on the ignition key.
I would like to know what the tag on the seat belt says - maybe someone here knows?

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Possibly_the_red_427_PR_car.jpg)

                                                     (http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/LAX_key_fob.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: richstang on May 10, 2014, 06:10:57 PM
George has some good details about this one.
It's from the Shelby American Open House in June '65, but it looks (at least to me) like a photo that was not circulated much.
It shows 5R001 in back of the Eastern hangar with Jerry Titus affixing its hood pins, and upon magnification it looks like Lew Spencer directly behind Jerry with the white roll in his pocket.
Of interest is that the guy in the white shirt with the beard that was riding with Lew Spencer & CSX2431 in a previous post is seen again in this photo.
It also shows the rear wheel arch modification on 5R001 as well.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/5R001_at_Shelby_American_Open_House.jpg)

Are there any distinctive features that tell us this is 5r001?
I notice the Goodyear truck in the far left. I'm sure they were invited to get in on the spotlight.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Bob Gaines on May 10, 2014, 08:06:54 PM
Are there any distinctive features that tell us this is 5r001?
I notice the Goodyear truck in the far left. I'm sure they were invited to get in on the spotlight.
For one thing the rear wheel arch is different then 5R002.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: 5S003 on May 10, 2014, 11:28:07 PM
Well I don't think it was 002 , it had lots of battle scars by then, this one looks too fresh, plus 002 had a rear bumper through most of the '65 season. By the time this photo was taken R094-R098  were already finished, not sure if those cars had any specs for Comstock or Essex Wire before they left Shelby American to narrow the field of choices? Rick or Howard need to chime in here.  pcorn 
Can't say it is 001 without close ups of both cars side by side.   


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: 5S003 on May 11, 2014, 12:27:06 AM


Backtracking to page 4 with the shot we feel is R001 with the bulges on either side of the grile at the Riverside race . I spoke to Bernie Kretzschmar since he was a crew member on 001 at this race. He does not remember these bulges, but he has no access to the internet so he can't see these photos. To SFM66H, could you print these photos off for Bernie if you are going to SAAC 39? He will be there. Another interesing note is that I don't think 001 had these bulges off the sides of the grile at the final race of the year, the Daytona race .  We can only speculate why or if they had to be removed. This has been 49 years, so photos may jog Bernies brain.

I can offer some insight to the shot taken through the fence at LAX with a line up of Rmodels and the 427 Cobras on wood boxes in the background on page 7 of this blog. In 1980 ,while in high school, I had a 1970 Boss 302 with a Cross Boss intake/ Autolite inline carb setup , this caused one of my neighbors to come over and watch the modifications needed to make it run. He mentioned he visited Shelby American in Aug of 1965 since he had a Corvette at the time and he wanted to see in person the factory that was producing the cars that were kicking their butts (aka the Cobra) . He drove his Vette down from Seattle and entering LA , saw dark smoke clouds rising all around him, he soon was driving around in areas in which he stood out, a nice Corvette and his skin tone being like the background of this document. He finally made it to Shelby American but the factory was closed due to what he found out later was the Watts Riot.  The dates were between Aug 11-17, 1965, you can take out the weekend dates of the riot, since he knows he wanted to tour the factory during the weekdays. Fearing for his safety, he stuck his camera through the chain link fence and took a COLOR shot almost at the same angle as the one from the George Watters collection . This photo in black and white is in the latest SAAC Registry, page 202, as I gave it Rick years ago. Not sure which Rmodels these are maybe 209,211 or up to the 527 grouping?   The 427 Cobras, as you know, were not able to get their Halibrands in time, so they were set up on wood crates.  The second R model in the SAAC Registry photo is interesting because it has a dual red line tire which is mounted on the right rear of the car.   


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: richstang on May 11, 2014, 02:47:20 PM
Well I don't think it was 002 , it had lots of battle scars by then, this one looks too fresh, plus 002 had a rear bumper through most of the '65 season. By the time this photo was taken R094-R098  were already finished, not sure if those cars had any specs for Comstock or Essex Wire before they left Shelby American to narrow the field of choices? Rick or Howard need to chime in here.  pcorn 
Can't say it is 001 without close ups of both cars side by side.   

Yes, that's more of what I was thinking...could be any from that first batch.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on May 11, 2014, 04:24:19 PM

Backtracking to page 4 with the shot we feel is R001 with the bulges on either side of the grile at the Riverside race . I spoke to Bernie Kretzschmar since he was a crew member on 001 at this race. He does not remember these bulges, but he has no access to the internet so he can't see these photos. To SFM66H, could you print these photos off for Bernie if you are going to SAAC 39? He will be there. Another interesing note is that I don't think 001 had these bulges off the sides of the grile at the final race of the year, the Daytona race .  We can only speculate why or if they had to be removed. This has been 49 years, so photos may jog Bernies brain.

Mark - Yes I will print some copies because I will be at Elkhart Lake - but I can give them to you at Shelby Parts & Restoration Brat Fry on Wed 14.
          Looking forward to seeing you there.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: 5S003 on May 11, 2014, 05:28:42 PM
To SFM66H , Please introduce yourself at Jim's , I should be there around 11:00 am.  You have uncovered an R MODEL mystery, keep the photos til Friday night, if you haven't met Bernie I can point him out to you. Titus meant a lot to him , so either Bernie, Cantwell , Schwarz would be good to talk to. Look forward to meeting lots of the forum members, this will be a tough week for us, nothing will get past you guys on these two cars.  We can smooze with the people at Amelia, the 50th, the Quail etc., but SAAC 39 will different.  Appreciate George allowing his photos to be shared , I need to e mail him tonight on something I messed up on, he knows his stuff and has been active on these subjects for so many years. Quite a treat. 
Best,

Mark   


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: 5S003 on May 11, 2014, 05:54:46 PM
As a side story to the photo taken in June 1965 , for the Shelby American open house. I met a number of years ago, Gordon Thorne in Seattle , at the young age of 19 he was Shelby American's assistant PR person under Max Muhleman . He was let go a few days after Shelby American won the World Championship, included in things he gave me, was a letter from Carroll signed and dated July 11,1965.  It struck me at a time when Shelby American could have thrived on lots of PR, they let one of their PR people go. This was a time when Ford moved in and started axing a lot of the jobs, his was one of them. In his resume , he told me he solely was resposible for producing 1965 Press Pack , although Muhleman got the credit.  He also wrote that 400 of these were produced, so now we know that number.  He said Shelby was too cheap to have the photos for the press pack produced in LA, so they were done in Ohio, then sent to LAX. If you open an original press pack, you will see Carroll's signature, except it is not Carroll's , Gordon told me the people from the printers arrived at LAX , Shelby was gone that day and the needed a signature on a plate so they could print the press pack. A very nervous Gordon Thorne forged his signature and they produced it from that. He said all the big wigs from Ford were at the open house along with the automotive press, everone got one of the press packets. Every type of Shelby American product was on display that day, various people were getting rides up and down the backsides of the blastwalls . You have seen photos of Miles giving rides to Henry Ford in a GT40. Gordon told me at one point, he leaned up against a 289 Cobra street car when he looked down he had made a dent in the body.  He thought for sure he was going to get fired that day. He slowly walked away and spent the rest of day far away from the cars.  I still have his 1965 Press packet.   


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on May 12, 2014, 09:34:47 AM
To SFM66H , Please introduce yourself at Jim's , I should be there around 11:00 am.  You have uncovered an R MODEL mystery, keep the photos til Friday night, if you haven't met Bernie I can point him out to you. Titus meant a lot to him , so either Bernie, Cantwell , Schwarz would be good to talk to. Look forward to meeting lots of the forum members, this will be a tough week for us, nothing will get past you guys on these two cars.  We can smooze with the people at Amelia, the 50th, the Quail etc., but SAAC 39 will different.  Appreciate George allowing his photos to be shared , I need to e mail him tonight on something I messed up on, he knows his stuff and has been active on these subjects for so many years. Quite a treat. 
Best,

Mark   

OK Mark, I'll talk to you at Jim's on Wed. I saw Bernie when he gave the tour at 6501 W. Imperial Hwy during SAAC 27's 'Magical History Tour' in 2002, but I'll have you help me meet him this time.
             It will be great if he can shed some light on this R-Model Mystery, uncovered because of George's Riverside photo.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: A1965GT350 on May 12, 2014, 01:08:58 PM

Does anyone know the real identity of the passenger? I am fairly certain it is not Ray Suarez.
.

First off, this is another great topic. Thanks for posting the pictures! Really makes my day.
As far as the picture, if it is Ray Suarez, he would have be 8 years old. According to LAitino times, he was born in 1957.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on May 12, 2014, 01:28:23 PM
   That's why I suggested David E Davis. He was a magazine guy and one of Shelby's pals. He was in the group shots at "Teralingua" as well.
     Randy


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: 2112 on May 12, 2014, 01:31:56 PM
Give him Dishwater Blonde hair and he is my Doppelganger.

I am thinner but our faces are almost identical. Made the hair stand up on my neck when that got posted. Even gave my wife a chill when I enlarged the pic of him in the passenger seat. I was born in 64' BTW


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: cobrakidz on May 12, 2014, 11:16:28 PM
Great thread--love the photos and history that goes with them.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on May 13, 2014, 09:47:28 AM
George has had a couple of photos that were taken at Hi-Performance Motors in his collection for 35 years, long before you may have seen them on a website in recent years.
This one is at HPM's second location at 901 N. Sepulveda Blvd. in El Segundo - you are looking north here and Sepulveda Blvd. is on the right.
West Imperial Highway and Shelby American's LAX facility are just a couple blocks to the north.
You can see four 289 Cobras lined up here and another one inside the chain link fence.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/At_Hi-Performance_Motors_-_901_N__Sepulveda_Blvd.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on May 13, 2014, 01:07:17 PM
    Two with factory luggage racks!!
    Another GREAT shot . Thanks to you and George.
     Randy


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: terlingua11 on May 13, 2014, 01:19:42 PM
Do you happen to have an exact date that image was taken? Is it on the negative or anything?


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: richstang on May 13, 2014, 03:35:24 PM
The fifth car on the end doesn't appear to be a Cobra. It a might be an MG...notice the flat windscreen and shorter less rounded nose. Also, I wonder if the cobra behind the fence is a Dragonsnake or race prepped car. It's really hard to tell behind the fence post, but looks like it might have a wider rear tire and flare.

With regards to the previous r-model side view photo at the LAX open house;
I think it could be same r-model as the pictures (front and rear view) I posted here on Sunday in the "Car Graphics" article thread. Perhaps it is best to comment in that thread to keep those pictures out of George's collection of photos. That article was supposedly written by a Japanese press photographer / writer who was at the open house. Since nobody commented in that thread I didn't want it missed if it could help to ID the car.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on May 13, 2014, 10:46:42 PM
Do you happen to have an exact date that image was taken? Is it on the negative or anything?

Sorry, no - the posted picture was scanned from an 8x10 photo, and there was no date on the back of it.
If George has any updates on the date of it we will surely post it here.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on May 13, 2014, 11:06:41 PM
The fifth car on the end doesn't appear to be a Cobra. It a might be an MG...notice the flat windscreen and shorter less rounded nose. Also, I wonder if the cobra behind the fence is a Dragonsnake or race prepped car. It's really hard to tell behind the fence post, but looks like it might have a wider rear tire and flare.

With regards to the previous r-model side view photo at the LAX open house;
I think it could be same r-model as the pictures (front and rear view) I posted here on Sunday in the "Car Graphics" article thread. Perhaps it is best to comment in that thread to keep those pictures out of George's collection of photos. That article was supposedly written by a Japanese press photographer / writer who was at the open house. Since nobody commented in that thread I didn't want it missed if it could help to ID the car.


richstang- Good eye for catching that. I'm going to go back and edit the post on the number of Cobras - Thanks!
We have another photo that shows part of that Cobra behind the fence better - it's coming up next.

Re: The R-Model photos you posted - they were awesome, I had never seen them before. I sure wish their quality had been better though, they were great R-Model photos.
I lost track of that thread though (Car Graphics?), so they shouldn't affect George's if they are not in it, if I understand you correctly.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on May 13, 2014, 11:37:09 PM
Here's the follow-up to the previous photo - this also is Hi-Performance Motors second location at 901 N. Sepulveda Blvd. in El Segundo.
Now you are looking northwest and you can see a better view of the same Cobra with the hard top behind the chain link fence.
You can also see a '65 and a '66 GT 350 back there too.

George has been working real hard to identify the street that this is on, which intersects N. Sepulveda Blvd.
This dealership was on a corner, and we're working on a labeled diagram of a Google Earth photo that will show how it was laid out and it's relationship to LAX.
When it's done it will be posted here, and it will finally answer my long standing desire to know exactly where it was, as my '66 GT 350H was sold there.
 
(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/At_HPM_-_901_N__Sepulveda_Blvd.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: 6S2020 on May 14, 2014, 12:23:28 AM

George has been working real hard to identify the street that this is on, which intersects N. Sepulveda Blvd.
This dealership was on a corner, and we're working on a labeled diagram of a Google Earth photo that will show how it was laid out and it's relationship to LAX.
When it's done it will be posted here, and it will finally answer my long standing desire to know exactly where it was, as my '66 GT 350H was sold there.
 
(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/At_HPM_-_901_N__Sepulveda_Blvd.jpg)
[/quote]

6S2020 was a company car at SA ,but it was first ordered from HPM, so when i fly in from OZ to LA i stop by and stand on that corner under the street sign and imagine it back then.
Does it intersect with E Walnut Ave?
Hope to find a pic of 6S2020 at SA or HPM.
Darryll 


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: propayne on May 14, 2014, 04:46:21 AM
I honestly didn't want to clutter this awesome thread with my prattling - but these pictures are just incredible!  Chug a Lug


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on May 14, 2014, 08:20:35 AM
I honestly didn't want to clutter this awesome thread with my prattling - but these pictures are just incredible!  Chug a Lug

propayne - I had to look up 'prattling' in Webster's, and you're not doing it! We're glad you are enjoying these pictures as much as we do.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: GT350CS on May 14, 2014, 09:06:17 AM
Just a note on the GT350s behind the fence, they both appear to be 1966 to me.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM6S on May 14, 2014, 09:19:36 AM
i respectfully disagree. The one closest to the fence is a 65; painted louviers. The one in back has the plexiglas 1/4 windows.
Joe


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on May 14, 2014, 09:45:09 AM
   This would be about the time that HP was doing radio installs on '66s for SAI. If that's a Dragonsake , it could be El Cid , the only black Dragonsnake I know of.
    Randy


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: GT350CS on May 14, 2014, 10:01:44 AM
SFSM6:  You are RIGHT!!  I zoomed in for a closer look.  Thanks for correcting my error.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: 67_1183 on May 14, 2014, 10:05:23 AM
Here's the follow-up to the previous photo - this also is Hi-Performance Motors second location at 901 N. Sepulveda Blvd. in El Segundo.
Now you are looking northwest and you can see a better view of the same Cobra with the hard top behind the chain link fence.
You can also see a '65 and a '66 GT 350 back there too.

George has been working real hard to identify the street that this is on, which intersects N. Sepulveda Blvd.
This dealership was on a corner, and we're working on a labeled diagram of a Google Earth photo that will show how it was laid out and it's relationship to LAX.
When it's done it will be posted here, and it will finally answer my long standing desire to know exactly where it was, as my '66 GT 350H was sold there.

The cross street appears to be Walnut.  The corner now has a BofA.  View is northwest.  Imperial is the overpass.
Does this help?




Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on May 14, 2014, 06:44:28 PM
Now, here is a photo taken inside of Hi-Performance Motors on N. Sepulveda Blvd.
George's friend took this photo and it's a great one to show the difference between the street cars and the comp version Cobras with the rear flares.

To me, it looks like a Drag Cobra with those 5-spoke knockoff wheels and roll bar - the small dia. exhaust may be temporary.
With those wheels and that style of flares, it reminds me of CSX2427, which was a Factory Prepared Customer Drag car.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Inside_Hi-Performance_Motors_on_N__Sepulveda_Blvd.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: KRANKY on May 14, 2014, 09:54:14 PM
The silver Cobra looks to possibly be Paul Petersen's Cobra (2343).  Does anyone have a copy of the #74 issue of "Shelby American" that they could look at on page 16....there's supposed to a photo of Paul Peterson in his Cobra?

Kranky

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Inside_Hi-Performance_Motors_on_N__Sepulveda_Blvd.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on May 15, 2014, 04:53:18 AM
This dealership was on a corner, and we're working on a labeled diagram of a Google Earth photo that will show how it was laid out and it's relationship to LAX.

I haven't been able to post the two aerial photos the last couple days because things have been pretty hectic around here with SAAC 39 going on.
I might be able to get the first one posted Thursday night though...


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on May 15, 2014, 04:58:12 AM
The silver Cobra looks to possibly be Paul Petersen's Cobra (2343).  Does anyone have a copy of the #74 issue of "Shelby American" that they could look at on page 16....there's supposed to a photo of Paul Peterson in his Cobra?

Kranky


Kranky - Great feedback - If you are able to ID this Cobra that would be incredible! - Thanks


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on May 15, 2014, 05:43:10 AM
Kranky - Great feedback - If you are able to ID this Cobra that would be incredible! - Thanks

I forgot to add that George has another photo of this Cobra in HPM's showroom - it was taken from the rear and it shows the license plate!
Hope to post it later tonight...


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on May 15, 2014, 05:54:46 PM
Here's the other photo in HPM's showroom on Sepulveda Blvd. of the Cobra with some Comp features.
In checking the Registry, I think Kranky is right - it really looks like it could be CSX2343.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Cobra_in_HPM_showroom_-_Sepulveda_Blvd.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on May 15, 2014, 09:04:11 PM
We finally have the diagram done of Hi-Performance Motors second location near LAX.
It's close to scale but not exact and shows well the orientation of the photos that were taken there.
The dotted lines represent the chain link fence seen in the photos and you can see where the 3 doors were located.
The back L-shaped area was the garage, the narrow corridor  is where the small offices were and the front area on Sepulveda was the showroom (not to exact scale).
The photo at this altitude was chosen to show its proximity to W. Imperial Hwy, but a higher altitude photo will show its distance from the Shelby American hangars at LAX - that will be posted soon.

Here's George's story about it:

"Yes, I was there a few times. I still have all the literature that I picked up. There was a table on the back right side of the showroom loaded with all kinds of great stuff. On one visit I can remember a salesman driving a Red 427 Cobra down Walnut next to the showroom. I remember there was always a few GT 350's inside the exterior fenced in area. I also remember a Ford GT, 289 Cobra and a blue '66 GT 350 inside the showroom on one visit. I also remember the small garage area in back always had a few cars being worked on, including a couple of GT 350 H's."


How great is that?

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/HPM_2.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: richstang on May 16, 2014, 07:05:55 PM
Now, here is a photo taken inside of Hi-Performance Motors on N. Sepulveda Blvd.
George's friend took this photo and it's a great one to show the difference between the street cars and the comp version Cobras with the rear flares.

To me, it looks like a Drag Cobra with those 5-spoke knockoff wheels and roll bar - the small dia. exhaust may be temporary.
With those wheels and that style of flares, it reminds me of CSX2427, which was a Factory Prepared Customer Drag car.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Inside_Hi-Performance_Motors_on_N__Sepulveda_Blvd.jpg)

Those flares look more pronounced than most of the dragonsnakes. I think it looks closer to csx2472 (although not as wide) than any of the others.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on May 18, 2014, 08:14:18 AM
 The tires are not drag slicks. They have tread.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on May 18, 2014, 05:30:25 PM
This higher altitude photo shows the relationship of the Shelby American hangars at LAX to Hi-Performance Motors second location at 901 N. Sepulveda Blvd. in El Segundo.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Relationship_of_LAX_Hangars_to_HPM_2.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on May 19, 2014, 08:59:57 AM
Here is George's story about this photo of the showroom at Hi-Performance Motors on Sepulveda Blvd:

"I was able to visit this location a few times. This very rare color picture was taken in 1966 by a friend. The showroomm was very small and I never remember seeing more than 3 cars at a time inside. There was a couple of salesman's offices in the back and you can see one to the right of the red '66 GT 350. There was, as I stated previously, a small table in the back right corner that was loaded with all sorts of literature. I always helped myself and still have everyting I took. The street that you see thru the glass windows in back of the GT 350 would be E. Walnut Ave. It was on a very slight hill.  Sepulveda Blvd. would be to the left, right outside of the front of the showroom. You can also see just to the left of the GT 350 hood a very large paper Cobra banner attached to the window. There was a large set of glass dooors to the right of the Ford GT that opened up so the cars could be driven in. This also led to the small car lot on the north side of the building. We posted a couple of pictures of 289 Cobras parked in this area last week and as we stated there was a chain link fence around this side that always contained some GT 350's and Cobras. The garages were in back of this area and I remember always seeing cars being worked on, including a couple of black & gold GT 350H's."

Also, check out that display engine with the yellow block. At SAAC 39 I was able to look at one of those rare Cobra banners as seen in the window here. It was spectacular. And Not For Sale.
On the sign by the Ford GT I can read only the top line, which says: 'FORD GT COUPE'. It would be interesting to read the rest of it though. 

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/The_showroom_at_HPM_2_on_Sepulveda_Blvd.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: vernonestes on May 19, 2014, 09:32:49 AM

At SAAC 39 I was able to look at one of those rare Cobra banners as seen in the window here. It was spectacular. And Not For Sale.


Thanks for the kind words on the banner. It was fun to show everyone! Here is a photo, had to put some stickers on it as I would rather not have reproductions out there. They have been reproduced but those repops that do exist are not very close to the original.

Best regards,
Vern

(http://i778.photobucket.com/albums/yy64/vernonestes/19cd689a-1dca-4a80-8651-4aae17c3031d_zps5beddd22.jpg?t=1400517103)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: 2112 on May 19, 2014, 12:35:09 PM
Interesting that the display small block with Webers was painted Red or Orange.



Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on May 19, 2014, 01:36:25 PM
   Yellow


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on May 20, 2014, 09:47:31 AM
These two photos are among my favorites of all time - we think one of them may have been published before, we're not sure if the other has been.
But they sure appear to be the same car in the same spot, so I'm including both of them in the same post.

First, George's comments:
"This car is parked next to the blast wall at Shelby American on Imperial Hwy. It looks like a 1966 GT350 prototype. The car has the exterior '66 features but has '65 side stripes. I see no '66 tach or NO '65 dash pod! One thing I find interesting is that the license plate in front has an '014 MFG' on it, not the usual '013 MFG' Shelby plate. The driver's side exterior mirror is farther back than on the '66 cars."

Now for my comments: This car (in my opinion) is the pinnacle of early street version GT350's. It has everything that works for me - the '65 style side stripes, the side scoops, the quarter windows, the Cragars/Blue Dot tires, the '65 mirror location and the '66 grille. It's like the ultimate combination of features of the first two years of GT350 production. I think the Carryover cars are really compelling, but this one even 'trumps' them a little with the '65 side stripes. I did not crop these photos because I like all of the extra detail of the location that it was photographed in - it just takes me right to that location in my mind. LAX photos - nothing takes me back to that era like they do! 

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/180_dpi_-_side.jpg)

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/180_dpi_-_front.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on May 20, 2014, 10:11:37 AM
     I have two questions maybe you can answer because you have the actual photo.
    What steering wheel? '65 or plastic '66?
    Back seat or '65 shelf?
    Fantastic photos and MUCH appreciated!
    Randy


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: 5S003 on May 20, 2014, 10:39:19 AM
Many years ago, SAAC thought this was 5S200, but I think this car now resides in the John Atzbach collection .   pcorn


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on May 21, 2014, 12:03:29 AM
     I have two questions maybe you can answer because you have the actual photo.
    What steering wheel? '65 or plastic '66?
    Back seat or '65 shelf?
    Fantastic photos and MUCH appreciated!
    Randy

Those are great questions, but even with the photo and a magnifying glass in hand, it's hard to tell.
I can see a ring that goes around the middle OD of the steering wheel and it has pronounced finger grips.
The bit of its spoke that I can see appears to have an angled contour to it near the OD - I thought the spokes of the wood wheels were flat in that area.
For the back seat area, all I can see is the rear door that opens to access the trunk.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on May 21, 2014, 07:17:00 AM
   Thanks for trying!
      Randy


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on May 21, 2014, 09:02:52 AM
Here's a nice photo of 427 Cobra engines on the floor at LAX.
Of interest in the background is that it may be near the GT350 production line.
With their side vents removed, maybe these are '66 cars slated to have quarter windows installed.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/427_Cobra_engines_at_LAX.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: bpoe on May 21, 2014, 09:17:50 AM
These two photos are among my favorites of all time - we think one of them may have been published before, we're not sure if the other has been.
But they sure appear to be the same car in the same spot, so I'm including both of them in the same post.

First, George's comments:
"This car is parked next to the blast wall at Shelby American on Imperial Hwy. It looks like a 1966 GT350 prototype. The car has the exterior '66 features but has '65 side stripes. I see no '66 tach or NO '65 dash pod! One thing I find interesting is that the license plate in front has an '014 MFG' on it, not the usual '013 MFG' Shelby plate. The driver's side exterior mirror is farther back than on the '66 cars."

Now for my comments: This car (in my opinion) is the pinnacle of early street version GT350's. It has everything that works for me - the '65 style side stripes, the side scoops, the quarter windows, the Cragars/Blue Dot tires, the '65 mirror location and the '66 grille. It's like the ultimate combination of features of the first two years of GT350 production. I think the Carryover cars are really compelling, but this one even 'trumps' them a little with the '65 side stripes. I did not crop these photos because I like all of the extra detail of the location that it was photographed in - it just takes me right to that location in my mind. LAX photos - nothing takes me back to that era like they do! 

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/180_dpi_-_side.jpg)

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/180_dpi_-_front.jpg)
Wow, these pics are awesome.  Is there a way you can share higher-resolution versions of some of these?


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on May 21, 2014, 10:11:15 AM
Wow, these pics are awesome.  Is there a way you can share higher-resolution versions of some of these?

I met people last weekend (at SAAC 39 & at the Open Houses at Shelby Parts & Bob Perkins) who were astounded at the story of how George first contacted me because of a comment I posted on the Forum and then ended up sending his photos to me. They all said the same thing that I said when I first started doing this a month ago: "Who does that?"
They also asked me if he is concerned that people can save the images that we are posting on the Forum and do whatever with them. I had a conversation with him about just that when I got back, and he repeated what he has said a couple times already. That the photos were not doing anybody any good just sitting in an album that he doesn't look at much. But that they would do a lot of good being shared with members of the Shelby Forum, and that he was not concerned with what people would do with them. That is still amazing to me, but that's George Watters. I also learned this past weekend that many SAAC people know him and have for many years, and they all say the same thing about him - what a good guy he is.

But I still would be more comfortable asking him first about sharing higher resolution versions - I have a feeling I know what he will say. If I'm correct, I'll post it here that you could pm me with your email address & your request. I just hope I can find the time to respond because he just sent me more photos! These are never-before-seen high quality 8x10's of his R-Model (5R528) in action in 1965-1968 and they are date stamped! He has said he's anxious to share them with the members here. I haven't even scanned those yet, and I haven't even gotten to post the smaller 3x5's either, and there are some good ones of those.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on May 21, 2014, 10:21:30 AM
   Now that you bring it up George was THE first to do a concours restoration of an R Model. He did it at a point in time where many NOS parts were still around including tires. His extreme attention to detail and no compromise attitude made the car look like it just rolled off of the delivery truck! Mind you this was over thirty years ago.
     Randy


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: J_Speegle on May 21, 2014, 04:32:14 PM
.........And I've always wondered if anybody has one of the black plastic door protectors shown here - I don't know if they ever made it past dealer prep to delivery - I just think it would be really cool to have one.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/1965_GT350_group_photo_at_LAX.jpg)

Old post - catching up

No black ones here - only seen and have had the clear opaque ones


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Bob Gaines on May 21, 2014, 08:13:24 PM
Here's a nice photo of 427 Cobra engines on the floor at LAX.
Of interest in the background is that it may be near the GT350 production line.
With their side vents removed, maybe these are '66 cars slated to have quarter windows installed.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/427_Cobra_engines_at_LAX.jpg)
]Notice the shorty fram oil filters. They were used instead of a FL1 so to clear the Cobra main tube . Same filter used on 67/68 GT500 air cars .


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Coralsnake on May 21, 2014, 08:18:47 PM
With printing...hmmmm


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Wood27man on May 21, 2014, 08:23:30 PM
There are times when the computer crashes or programs don't work and I hate technology...and there are times like this where an average admirer like me can view an incredible collection of photographs and read collective details and stories from people all over and I am so thankful to live in the age of the internet. As a long-time Shelby fan, this is the most amazing thread I have ever seen. Lines of Cobras sitting waiting for wheels,  '67s parked together, the factory shots, the dealership chock full of amazing Shelby cars, my head is happily spinning. Thanks to George for releasing the photos and for you taking the time to get them on the website. I've just spent a most enjoyable two hours looking through the photos.

Going back to the post five or six above this one showing the 427 engines on the floor, there is an Autolite battery on the table that is white. Can anyone shed light on what that came out of? I don't think I've ever seen a white battery.
Thanks again.
Jeff


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: johndoe on May 21, 2014, 10:42:37 PM
This is 5S319.  Yes, it was a '65 that was a factory prototype for the '66 and '67 styling changes.  SA kept it around for 18 months while testing a variety of components in it including an automatic transmission for some period of time, a Hurst shifter, the side scoops, the plexiglass side windows, the duck tail rear spoiler, an AM/FM, 8 track, and a few other interesting features.  Chuck McHose from Ford used it at SA for a while also.  Maybe that explains the "014" license plate?  Anybody know if Ford used "014" plates in CA at that time?  I have no idea.

John



These two photos are among my favorites of all time - we think one of them may have been published before, we're not sure if the other has been.
But they sure appear to be the same car in the same spot, so I'm including both of them in the same post.

First, George's comments:
"This car is parked next to the blast wall at Shelby American on Imperial Hwy. It looks like a 1966 GT350 prototype. The car has the exterior '66 features but has '65 side stripes. I see no '66 tach or NO '65 dash pod! One thing I find interesting is that the license plate in front has an '014 MFG' on it, not the usual '013 MFG' Shelby plate. The driver's side exterior mirror is farther back than on the '66 cars."

Now for my comments: This car (in my opinion) is the pinnacle of early street version GT350's. It has everything that works for me - the '65 style side stripes, the side scoops, the quarter windows, the Cragars/Blue Dot tires, the '65 mirror location and the '66 grille. It's like the ultimate combination of features of the first two years of GT350 production. I think the Carryover cars are really compelling, but this one even 'trumps' them a little with the '65 side stripes. I did not crop these photos because I like all of the extra detail of the location that it was photographed in - it just takes me right to that location in my mind. LAX photos - nothing takes me back to that era like they do! 

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/180_dpi_-_side.jpg)

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/180_dpi_-_front.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: johndoe on May 21, 2014, 10:49:37 PM
I'd also love to have hi-res copies of these two photos (5S319) if possible, for my files to go with the car.

I've never met George Watters, but I had the pleasure of speaking with him last summer over the phone.  During our conversation, he mentioned that he might have a few photos of one of my cars in his files and if he could find them, he'd send them to me.  A few days later I received an envelope in the mail with fantastic, high quality, large size photos of my car from back in the day.  I asked if I could send him something for them and he told me that he was just happy that they could go somewhere that they'd be appreciated.  He's truly a great guy.  I wish there were more like him out there.  Thank you again George if you happen to read this sometime!  John


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on May 21, 2014, 11:19:12 PM
I'd also love to have hi-res copies of these two photos (5S319) if possible, for my files to go with the car.
John

John - First off, Thanks very much for ID'ing the car in these 2 photos - I never had any idea that it was 5S319 because I had only ever seen pictures of '319 with '66 side stripes and a rear spoiler.

And here's George's response to the requests for hi-resolution versions of his photos:
"I'm fine with it and I'm happy for the members to see the pictures. I am sure some members want to try and see a little more detail and it might answer some questions."

So, with that, you can PM (personal message) me to give me your email address & I'll send them to you.
 


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on May 22, 2014, 08:34:49 AM
Here's another 427 engine photo taken at LAX, but I would like some help with some of its features.
Is the crank driven pump on the lower front something to do with a dry sump oil system?
And is the apparatus on the snout of the crank for a mechanical drive tach?
Anything that anybody can add about this photo is appreciated.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Engine_on_floor_at_LAX.jpg)

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Engine_on_floor_at_LAX_-_cropped.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on May 22, 2014, 09:36:16 AM
    Yes and Yes.
      The drive is a Stewart Warner unit because the XF tach drive FE distributor wasn't made yet.
      The external pump is the scavenge pump for the COBRA dry sump system. This may be the prototype as it looks like a stamped steel pan instead of the cast aluminum piece shown in the catalogs. The "normal" Ford pump was used to supply oil to the engine from the dry sump tank. The external pump pulled oil out of the pan and sent it to the cooler and eventually the dry sump tank.
   Another incredible time capsule photo.
     Randy


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on May 22, 2014, 09:46:15 AM
So, with that, you can PM (personal message) me to give me your email address & I'll send them to you.
 

Wow - I see now that I should have been much more specific about this sentence when I posted it.
It does say to 'give me your email address' - but I've already had requests to inform them of the shipping costs!
As I told George, I did not have any of his photos reproduced because of my fear of something happening to them while in my possession.
And members are just requesting 'hi-res copies of George's photos' - that's easy for them to ask for but not easy for me to do (I just don't have the time) as this is an ongoing project here.
Our intent was that members could ask for hi-res EMAILED copies of specific photos that had already been posted on George's thread.
Because he wants to help if someone is looking for more detail in a specific, or a couple of, photos.
I apologize if anyone misunderstood our intent, or my sentence structure in blue above, just be reasonable & specific with your requests & we'll give it a try.
I work 10 hrs a day at my full time job in addition to doing the best job here that I possibly can, so please bear with me, but all requests will be acknowledged.
Thanks for your understanding - Kieth   



Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Bob Gaines on May 22, 2014, 10:40:46 AM
Here's another 427 engine photo taken at LAX, but I would like some help with some of its features.
Is the crank driven pump on the lower front something to do with a dry sump oil system?
And is the apparatus on the snout of the crank for a mechanical drive tach?
Anything that anybody can add about this photo is appreciated.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Engine_on_floor_at_LAX.jpg)

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Engine_on_floor_at_LAX_-_cropped.jpg)
Yes I think you Identified the parts correctly. 5S002 had a mechanical tach drive also (although different) . I marveled at how well the completed assembly looked on 002 at the convention. Good job John B. Both BB and SB evolved to being driven off of the dist but don't know exactly when (66?). The crank drive brackets look like a nightmare. VERY COOL PICS.THANKS. Chug a Lug


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: camp upshur on May 22, 2014, 11:03:59 AM

Thank you very much for sharing these magnificent photos.

The FE appears to have alloy cylinder heads.
A four speed and dry sump would seem to limit the number of comp 427 Cobras this was destined to...


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on May 22, 2014, 12:51:26 PM
   Yes the aluminum water pump and aluminum center harmonic balancer are there too. This was a "light weight" Cobra engine for sure. This manifold looks like it's still an aluminum version. There were mag manifolds and water pump versions too. The carburetor also appears to be modified to mechanical secondaries, something else popular at the time.

      Ford made special tach drive distributors for the GT 40s that eliminated all this crank driven stuff, but they weren't "available" until late '65.
   Randy


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on May 23, 2014, 01:10:08 AM
Wow - I see now that I should have been much more specific about this sentence when I posted it.
It does say to 'give me your email address' - but I've already had requests to inform them of the shipping costs!
As I told George, I did not have any of his photos reproduced because of my fear of something happening to them while in my possession.
And members are just requesting 'hi-res copies of George's photos' - that's easy for them to ask for but not easy for me to do (I just don't have the time) as this is an ongoing project here.
Our intent was that members could ask for hi-res EMAILED copies of specific photos that had already been posted on George's thread.
Because he wants to help if someone is looking for more detail in a specific, or a couple of, photos.
I apologize if anyone misunderstood our intent, or my sentence structure in blue above, just be reasonable & specific with your requests & we'll give it a try.
I work 10 hrs a day at my full time job in addition to doing the best job here that I possibly can, so please bear with me, but all requests will be acknowledged.
Thanks for your understanding - Kieth

OK - I need to make another on-the-fly change to this plan because of all the requests coming in for the hi-res versions. The requests have been numerous, vague and confusing. I can't go back into 10 pages of threads and count the posts to email them "Post #37" for example - I just don't have the time. So how about this idea: you 'save' the already posted photo that you would like a hi-res of and email it to me. Then I know exactly which one you are referring to, no confusion. Then I return to you the hi-res version of it. I think that would be fairly quick, easy and accurate. I only have DSL though, so sending is slower than receiving. If you request, say 1 to 3 photos per email I think that should work OK. Let's try that & we'll see how it works. Thanks.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on May 23, 2014, 01:47:07 AM
There are times when the computer crashes or programs don't work and I hate technology...and there are times like this where an average admirer like me can view an incredible collection of photographs and read collective details and stories from people all over and I am so thankful to live in the age of the internet. As a long-time Shelby fan, this is the most amazing thread I have ever seen. Lines of Cobras sitting waiting for wheels,  '67s parked together, the factory shots, the dealership chock full of amazing Shelby cars, my head is happily spinning. Thanks to George for releasing the photos and for you taking the time to get them on the website. I've just spent a most enjoyable two hours looking through the photos.
Thanks again.
Jeff

Jeff - Your post put such a smile on my face that I just had to respond. I'm just like you about the good and bad of computers. Plus, I'm an 'old-school' guy - I still love the printed matter in my hands (car magazines and photos). But when I first started scanning photos I just couldn't believe how mesmerizing it was for me to see the same photo on a computer screen. And then to be able to organize your Shelby files and access them so easily for reference. And then to search the internet and discover new photos. And then being intimidated by learning that new SAAC Forum thing. But as you said, "so thankful to live in the age of the internet" - it has revolutionized my long-time passion for all things Shelby American. For me, just being able to go to the Forum and ask any question that you have, and get a knowledgeable answer and probably a photo along with it is just an amazing priveledge. How did we get by in the 1970's??
Kieth


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on May 23, 2014, 10:27:20 AM
Here's an original factory photograph of an automatic transmission equipped 427 Cobra inside LAX.
And here's George's story to go along with it:

"Seeing this closeup of the Automatic shifter brought back a memory for me. It was around 1972 and I was driving down Sunset Blvd. in Beverly Hills when I see this 427 parked in one of the small exotic used car lots that dotted the Strip at the time. I made a U-turn and parked my car in front (I had a red 1968 GT350 at the time). I walked over to the car and could not believe the color. It was blue metal flake and I had never seen a Cobra painted this color before. The car was a little beat. What did catch my attention was the AUTOMATIC Ford shifter it had. The salesman came over and told me that it belonged to Scott Carpenter. He said that it had a 460 in it. I asked if I could take it for a drive. He was hesitant but when I pointed out my GT350 to him he agreed. So I got in, started it up and drove it down Sunset Blvd. for about 10 minutes or so. When we got back I told the salesman I was going to think it over and would be in touch with him but never called back. By the way, the price was $5500. To this day I still remember how odd the paint job was and how different it felt to drive an Automatic 427 Cobra."

Wow - I have only heard about the few automatic trans 427 Cobras that were built (Mike Gaffney's CSX3141 being one) but have never been able to seen one.
I would like to know if it is known how many of them were built.
I remember Rick Kopec recently asking here if anyone had a photo of Scott Carpenter's 427 Cobra, and now with George's story we have a little more connection with that Cobra.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Automatic_Transmission_427_Cobra_at_LAX.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on May 23, 2014, 10:49:12 AM
OK - I need to make another on-the-fly change to this plan because of all the requests coming in for the hi-res versions. The requests have been numerous, vague and confusing. I can't go back into 10 pages of threads and count the posts to email them "Post #37" for example - I just don't have the time. So how about this idea: you 'save' the already posted photo that you would like a hi-res of and email it to me. Then I know exactly which one you are referring to, no confusion. Then I return to you the hi-res version of it. I think that would be fairly quick, easy and accurate. I only have DSL though, so sending is slower than receiving. If you request, say 1 to 3 photos per email I think that should work OK. Let's try that & we'll see how it works. Thanks.

Another correction needs to be made here by me. With bpoe's help, I now understand better what the term 'hi-res' means to most people. His original question in this thread actually used the word 'higher resolution' and that is actually more correct for what I have than the term high resolution. So, what I have are scans done at 150 dpi, but a hi-res scan would be more like a 300 dpi scan of an 8x10 photo. As I said, I am self-taught and not very tech-savy. So now I know that a couple of my favorite photos are of such good quality and in such demand that I must rescan them at 300 dpi - I'll never have time to redo them all though. I hope this explains better what you're getting when you email me for hi-res photos. The 150 dpi's are still real nice though and should tide you over until I get a few 300 dpi's done. Thanks. 


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on May 24, 2014, 08:26:10 AM
Here's another one from Shelby American's Open House in June of 1965.
That's Lew Spencer with his hand on CSX2431's steering wheel.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/At_the_Shelby_American_Open_House_-_June_1965.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: 6s1802 on May 24, 2014, 06:19:22 PM
Love the Saberliner sign a throwback to the North American days when champions of a different type were built there.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on May 26, 2014, 11:13:19 AM
Check out this 427 SC at LAX with all the cars in the background!
Here's George's story on this iconic photo:

"This photo was taken thru a chain link fence in 1966 by a friend of mine. This is one of the few color pictures I have seen taken at Shelby American. The hangar to the left is the one on the east side that had the assembly line inside. As you can see, there are a couple of 427 SC Cobras not completed yet and a street 427 close up on the right. I can see the rear exit exhaust and the small gas filler cap. The car looks like it could possibly be white. In the back we see many new red 1966 GT 350's. I see a row of at least 5 cars on the right that have top stripes and possibly 10-spokes. The cars to the left without the stripes look they have painted Magnums. The car on the right that is parked parallel has the chrome Magnums. This picture is one of my favorites."

I would just add for those who may not know about the front wheels on the SC, that they are 'slave wheels' used for transport only. They are standard 289 wheels mounted on the car inside out.
And the row of red GT 350's on the right definitely have 10-spokes, which is very clear on the better quality resolution photo before it was resized on the Forum.
It also looks like the entire rear exhaust pipe is painted on the street car at the lower right.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/427_SC_on_the_tarmac_at_LAX.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Chris NOS on May 26, 2014, 11:31:23 AM
i think the Cobra is raw aluminium and not painted yet ... thank you for sharing again!!!


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: richstang on May 26, 2014, 05:02:03 PM
I can really appreciate a color picture when just about all of the other factory pictures I've seen at LAX are in B&W.
 Chug a Lug

It looks like at least 25 red Shelby's in this image. I always imagined a more diverse group of colors in the '66 lot. More like a Ford factory lots in the day with colors scattered throughout. (I know Shelby only made a handful of colors for '66). I guess the Shelby's were built in more controlled batches.

I'd say that front street Cobra is painted white. It has a bright consistent finish compare to the two Cobra SC's behind it that are not complete. Interesting that the street Cobra has the 2 circle taillights and the SC model has the rectangle. I wonder when that change over took place?


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on May 27, 2014, 08:58:32 AM
We're doing something a little bit different this time by putting 3 pictures in the same post. We're doing so because of what it seems like was going on to us.
It looks like these 3 cars were following each other during a demonstration run when photographed, rather than being photographed individually at separate times.
Look at the flat-top roofed building in the background - it keeps moving to the left as you scroll thru the photos, like the photographer was pannning to his right while taking the pictures.
And in the last photo you can see the end of the row of GT 350's.
Nothing earth-shattering about this theory - it's just kind of a fun, different way to look at these famous photos.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Lew_Spencer_drive_by.jpg)

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/R-Model_drive_by.jpg)

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/SC_drive_by.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: ALF on May 27, 2014, 10:35:51 PM
The 289 seams to be the Ken Miles car.
At least it has the BRDC decal on the door.

Do you've more pictures of this car?
Ant MANY THANKS for sharing this outstanding pictures.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on May 28, 2014, 09:35:19 AM
You are correct, it is CSX2431 - Ken Miles' Team Car.
And yes, George has 2 more photos of it (one in color) that I don't believe have ever been seen before, and that I'm very anxious to post.
But I'm trying to finish up with his group of large photos first before I get to it.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: ALF on May 28, 2014, 11:16:25 AM
Aaaaaaaahhhhhh

It's like on TV.
The interesting part will be transmitted AFTER the break!!

Joking!
 HeadSpin

Many thanks for this great pictures and the pictures you'll post in the future!!


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on May 28, 2014, 11:01:54 PM
Initially, I wasn't sure if we were even going to post this photo, but then a hi-res scan revealed some interesting details. It shows Leo Beebe with Carroll Shelby at a meeting with Ford Executives at LAX.
The sign on the left says 'Cobra Daytona Coupe' - the #1 car is CSX2286. The next sign says 'Ford GT' (and appears to say 'Roadster' below that) - I believe that is GT/108.
The next 2 signs say 'Cobra 427' - the first one is a street car with the 'splitter' in the grille opening, and the next one is a Comp car with braided oil cooler hoses, a roll bar & a roundel on the nose.
The signs on the next two say 'Shelby Mustang GT 350' - the first one is an R-Model & the second one is a '65 with a '4101' Hi-Performance Motors license plate and no top stripes.
And on the last one the sign says 'GT 350 1966' and a license plate that reads '1966 GT 350'.
Of interest is that the R-Model has the same T-shaped aluminum oil pan as the street car next to it.
In the background on the left are two 289 Cobras - even the guy in the office in the background is dressed up in a suit!

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Meeting_at_LAX_with_Ford_Executives.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: QuickSilverShelby on May 29, 2014, 06:51:51 AM
Has a "George Watters collection of Shelby Photo's" ever been considered for publication in book form?  I think that would be amazing.

QSS


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: terlingua11 on May 29, 2014, 06:54:45 AM
That sounds like a great idea! +1

I'd buy one.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on May 29, 2014, 07:27:29 AM
    Back then suits were REQUIRED attire for Ford people.You could remove the jacket while working but the tie had to remain on. The joke was "the suits" are coming to visit when Ford people were in town. You were a "somebody" if you were in a suit!
   Randy


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: camp upshur on May 29, 2014, 08:21:22 AM
 
Stupendous!

So rich in matter, I could only imagine the yield of a hi-res analysis.
Thank you, once again, for you personal time and effort in sharing these with us.

Could that be a 1930's era vehicle under the cover in the rear??



Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on May 29, 2014, 09:13:26 AM
I forgot to add an observation of George's about the 'Meeting with Ford Execs' photo above.
He noted that the R-Model has the same T-shaped aluminum oil pan as the street car next to it, which is quite interesting to me because I thought all R-Models had a steel race pan.
I'll go back and add that to the original post.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on May 29, 2014, 09:38:38 AM
More details to drool over in this one. It shows Daytona Coupes CSX2287 (#2) and CSX2286 (#1) at LAX. Note the straight edges of '2287's rear spoiler, the only Coupe with that distinct feature.
Check out that 'CS' logo above the fender emblem on the pickup that is towing it - I don't think I've ever seen that before and will have to look in my files to see if it's on any other pickup.
The lettering on the door is 'shelby american, inc.' with the Imperial Highway address.
In the background are two '65 GT350's with steel wheels, no side stripes, no top stripes and no side exhaust yet. To the far right is a coffee shop.
But one of the coolest details of this photo is the 'Von Dutch' style pin striping on the fenders of both trailers! I would love to know if he did anything like that for Shelby American or if that was done by Shelby's guys.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Daytona_Coupes_at_LAX.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: bpoe on May 29, 2014, 04:51:50 PM
More details to drool over in this one. It shows Daytona Coupes CSX2287 (#2) and CSX2286 (#1) at LAX. Note the straight edges of '2287's rear spoiler, the only Coupe with that distinct feature.
Check out that 'CS' logo above the fender emblem on the pickup that is towing it - I don't think I've ever seen that before and will have to look in my files to see if it's on any other pickup.
The lettering on the door is 'shelby american, inc.' with the Imperial Highway address.
In the background are two '65 GT350's with steel wheels, no side stripes, no top stripes and no side exhaust yet. To the far right is a coffee shop.
But one of the coolest details of this photo is the 'Von Dutch' style pin striping on the fenders of both trailers! I would love to know if he did anything like that for Shelby American or if that was done by Shelby's guys.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Daytona_Coupes_at_LAX.jpg)
That trailer in the rear is quite totally overloading the hitch of the truck.  You would not see that carelessness today!


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: 2112 on May 29, 2014, 06:39:06 PM
Thank you for taking the time to give each image a distinct and meaningful title.

It makes saving to my hard drive a slam dunk.    Chug a Lug


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: 2112 on May 29, 2014, 06:41:26 PM
That trailer in the rear is quite totally overloading the hitch of the truck.  You would not see that carelessness today!

Personal injury and liability litigation were much less common back then.

And the cars.....they were a dime a dozen in those days (relative to today).


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on May 30, 2014, 07:13:08 AM
      If you look closely , it's the load in the back of the pickup truck that is the problem. It's leaning heavyily to the pass side. Spare engine or other heavy stuff. I agree the car is a bit forward on the trailer , but the cars just weren't that heavy to cause the nose down attitude.
      Randy


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: richstang on May 30, 2014, 08:24:23 AM
     If you look closely , it's the load in the back of the pickup truck that is the problem. It's leaning heavyily to the pass side. Spare engine or other heavy stuff. I agree the car is a bit forward on the trailer , but the cars just weren't that heavy to cause the nose down attitude.
      Randy

I agree with Randy. The pickup is definitely overloaded. Since these trucks are just outside the gatehouse, I suspect this photo was taken a day or so after the open house. Most likely on it's way to the TWA Terminal for shipment over to the Le Mans race. There are photos of both Daytona cars #1 and #2 not only at the TWA terminal but also unloading at Le Mans off a European transporter along with several GT40s.

I think this may be the same photo in an older Shelby American Magazine. If so, I guess George has shared some of his pictures in the past with SAAC. No matter, it is still a great photo you are sharing here!
 Chug a Lug


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on May 30, 2014, 08:30:58 AM
   The pickup is only a 1/2 ton and they were not known for having very heavy duty leaf springs. A 3/4 to would be a different story.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: 2112 on May 30, 2014, 08:34:38 AM
   The pickup is only a 1/2 ton and they were not known for having very heavy duty leaf springs.

Or decent brakes.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on May 30, 2014, 09:37:19 AM
Georges comments on this photo:
"It looks like they pull the cargo jet right up to the Shelby American storage area by the blast wall to unload the unpainted 427 Cobras. It is interesting that the Cobra that is being unloaded does not have its top up! Maybe they shipped them with the tops down and once they arrived the tops were put up since they were stored outside."

                                 There are 19 Cobras in the first row and a second row behind them.
                                         This photo would be looking approximately southwest:
(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Unloading_427_Cobras_at_LAX.jpg)

And I'm including this photo again to illustrate that the cargo jet would be parked to the left of the row of Cobras in the background.
                                                     This photo would be looking north:
(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/R-Models___427_Cobras_at_LAX.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: ChicagoChris on May 30, 2014, 10:14:06 AM
I second the book idea.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: QuickSilverShelby on May 30, 2014, 12:36:54 PM
That picture with the cargo jet in the background and all the Cobras in the foreground has to be one of the coolest pictures in George's collection, simply awesome.  I think a book of pictures and perhaps a brief description of each picture would make an amazing book.  And what a way to really tell a part of the Shelby history by providing some background story to the Shelby Legacy. 

QSS



Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: 1109RWHP on May 30, 2014, 05:58:15 PM
http://www.heapsoffun.com/pictures/2010/12/08/car_strapped_to_pickup_truck_ma103.jpg

This is how people haul stuff today. Forget the trailer!


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on May 31, 2014, 08:56:05 AM
George suggested that we post an aerial view of LAX to show exactly where the famous 'row of unpainted 427's' photo was taken.
This well-known photo shows the spot well, along with the gate it came through from the runway.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Where_the_TWA_cargo_jet_parked_at_LAX.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM6S087 on May 31, 2014, 09:46:49 AM
Fantastic!

Hey, Kieth, can you post a version of that "well known photo" without the added text? I've never seen it before and would like to save a clean copy to my hard drive.

Thanks for all the time and effort you are putting into sharing George's collection with us.

Steve


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on May 31, 2014, 09:58:35 AM
Steve - Here's George's uncropped photo of it (which I like better) to share with everyone - it really shows it in good perspective.
If you like the cropped version better, 'pm' me with your email address & I can send you a larger version of either one.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Aerial_view_of_LAX.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: camp upshur on May 31, 2014, 10:47:30 AM
I am presently at LAX as I've worked here for 30 years. Yes, for many years I regularly drove my 1965 GT-350 to work and my supervisor, for the first 20 years, Gary Meermans, drove his 427 Cobra to work as well. This was not so long ago! And it didn't seem unusual. I still drive my car to work occasionally at LAX.

Anyway, 6501 West Imperial Highway has changed CONSIDERABLY over the years. The buildings are no longer hangers. Approx 10~ years ago the buildings were deconstructed to basic framing. A large second story cupola was built into the east building altering it's profile appearance. When rebuilt the buildings were re-walled as warehouses and any trace of being hangers is gone.

The ramp/apron area has changed as well. More recently runway 25L was removed and another runway 25L was installed further south (and a midfield taxiway installed between the 25 duals where the pictured 25L is). This absorbed a lot of the free ramp space depicted on these outstanding period images.
FYI


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: richstang on May 31, 2014, 12:35:15 PM
I am presently at LAX as I've worked here for 30 years. Yes, for many years I regularly drove my 1965 GT-350 to work and my supervisor, for the first 20 years, Gary Meermans, drove his 427 Cobra to work as well. This was not so long ago! And it didn't seem unusual. I still drive my car to work occasionally at LAX.

Anyway, 6501 West Imperial Highway has changed CONSIDERABLY over the years. The buildings are no longer hangers. Approx 10~ years ago the buildings were deconstructed to basic framing. A large second story cupola was built into the east building altering it's profile appearance. When rebuilt the buildings were re-walled as warehouses and any trace of being hangers is gone.

The ramp/apron area has changed as well. More recently runway 25L was removed and another runway 25L was installed further south (and a midfield taxiway installed between the 25 duals where the pictured 25L is). This absorbed a lot of the free ramp space depicted on these outstanding period images.
FYI

Thanks you for this update on the LAX location! I had been wondering what it might look like now. Maybe you could snap a picture of the two buildings in their current profile and share in a new post?

I've been enjoying all of George's pictures and thinking about how the race prep building to the west was really opened up and exposed to the elements compared to the production building to the east. I'm wondering if it might have sliding doors on the back side facing the airport or perhaps it was just built open as shown. The skeleton structure appears to be the same for both.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM6S087 on May 31, 2014, 12:58:13 PM
Here's one that George said is one of his favorites - "A '66 Carryover Car at Riverside".

I love the purity and simplicity of this no LeMans stripe, MFR plate car.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Carryover_car_at_Riverside_%28MFR_plate%29_b.jpg)

To resurect a picture from earlier in this thread. Did anyone else notice that the part in the lower-center of the grille area appears to be all chrome? As opposed to having argent paint on the back portion.

BTW, the best I can figure, that car might be 6S116. Several other cars are in the realm of possibility, but 116 seems the most likely to me – just going by what’s in the Registry.

Steve


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on May 31, 2014, 04:10:34 PM
Steve - As this enlargement shows, I think it is entirely possible that you are right about the center piece being chrome.
            It definitely looks shinier to me than argent paint.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Possible_chrome_center_trim_piece.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM6S087 on May 31, 2014, 05:56:32 PM
Oh, your zoom is better than my zoom. And that ain't easy for a Texan to admit, Pardner. Ha, ha!

All kidding aside, thanks for that hi-res zoom. It pretty much confirms the all-chrome, lower grille center piece. This kind of find is pure gold for a carryover nut like me.

Steve


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: s2ms on May 31, 2014, 06:41:40 PM
I have an NOS all-chrome grille center piece. I always assumed they just forgot to paint it...

Dave


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on May 31, 2014, 06:49:26 PM
    Look closely at the enlarged picture . There is a painted piece of metal directly below the chromed center piece that shouldn't be there.

      Camp Upshur, my car 6S477 was a Hertz rental from LAX and when resold was owned by a Flying Tigers Freight employee that worked at LAX. He used to drive it to work as well. That was 40 years ago. Michael Muller was his name.
   Randy


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM6S087 on May 31, 2014, 07:15:33 PM
    Look closely at the enlarged picture . There is a painted piece of metal directly below the chromed center piece that shouldn't be there.

Does anyone know what that is and what it might indicate about this car?

Steve


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: camp upshur on May 31, 2014, 10:08:47 PM

1.  WRT the small white piece, could that perhaps be the slotted tab which is on the lower grille bar, slightly to the driver's side? 
 
2.  Regarding the bright center trim piece, does the hi-res image of 1965 5S319 (1966 prototype) parked along the jet blast deflector have a similar piece?

3.  Rich, the hangers: if you look close they are identical. Notice the cantilevered overhang on the west (race) hanger, the east hanger has the same structure with a later addition underneath of what appears to be office type fill-in construction.
Today the east hanger is QANTAS Air Freight and the west is NCA Air Freight (Nippon Cargo). Those buildings, where the greatest American warplanes and later, race cars, were produced.....well.....like so much else.....


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM6S087 on June 01, 2014, 11:12:49 AM
I think the answer to #2 is YES.

Steve


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: richstang on June 01, 2014, 11:39:23 AM
Rich, the hangers: if you look close they are identical. Notice the cantilevered overhang on the west (race) hanger, the east hanger has the same structure with a later addition underneath of what appears to be office type fill-in construction.
Today the east hanger is QANTAS Air Freight and the west is NCA Air Freight (Nippon Cargo). Those buildings, where the greatest American warplanes and later, race cars, were produced.....well.....like so much else.....

Camp Upshur,
Yes, I can see the structure is the same. Since we know these were planer hangers, I was just wondering if the west race hanger with the open cantilevered section had sliding doors that could be closed up like what is shown on the east production hanger? From your reply, I gather you think the east production building had permanent closed built construction in the cantilevered rear section.

It is understandable, with it's prime location, that both these buildings were altered over the many years that have since passed. How about the small white building in front of these hangers. (Where the ivy green '66 GT350S "6s051" was photographed in front of). Is that long gone or revamped?

I'm hoping for some more photos in George's collection that will show these buildings from other angles.   


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: 2112 on June 01, 2014, 12:07:22 PM
Try zooming in on Google earth. You can closely replicate the view in that aerial photograph showing you what it looks like in 2013.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: J_Speegle on June 01, 2014, 02:12:03 PM
Does anyone know what that is and what it might indicate about this car?

That the supplier of the part screwed up and missed the paint detail - or someone cleaned it off for some unknown reason   :o


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on June 01, 2014, 05:07:12 PM
All of this discussion about the details & layout of the LAX facility just reminded me of something I learned at SAAC 39 that I had never heard before, and found very interesting.
I was talking with Bernie Kretzschmar and showing him some of George's photos - as soon as he saw the aerial photo of LAX he pointed to the hole in the blast wall and said:
"That was Tweety's paint shop right there, in that opening in the blast wall. They wouldn't let him do his painting & fiberglass work in the hangars. We used to store engines in the blast wall, and you could drive a forklift in it."

I've seen a Friedman photo of 'Tweety' at Princeton Drive with the lightweght Cobra (CSX2196) he painted for Ken Miles at Nassau '64, but I never knew this detail about his paint shop at LAX!

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Tweetys_paint_shop_in_the_blast_wall.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM6S087 on June 01, 2014, 08:22:20 PM
That the supplier of the part screwed up and missed the paint detail - or someone cleaned it off for some unknown reason   :o

Thanks for the reply, Jeff. But I was talking about what appears to be a little tab of white painted sheetmetal that is sticking out below the grill joint cover.

Steve


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM6S on June 01, 2014, 08:43:29 PM
My only thoughts regarding the white tab below the center trim piece is the following: is it possible from the angle of of the photo that is the tab that would normally attech to the hood latch support bracket; but on the other hand there is no evidence of the pronounced body line or "crease" at the center of the grill filler. It does appear that something is not standard Mustang issue.

Joe


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: J_Speegle on June 01, 2014, 09:15:58 PM
Thanks for the reply, Jeff. But I was talking about what appears to be a little tab of white painted sheetmetal that is sticking out below the grill joint cover.


Yes the tab that would attach (on a 65 Mustang or a 66 Mustang or Shelby) to the hood latch support. Often these are blacked out at the plant so that they don't stand out - sort of like the pinch welds

We often don't notice this on a Shelby since its blue ones the Lemans stripes are added

One such example with the Lemans stripe color over it

(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f49/firetrainer/Original%20Uni-body%20%20Pictures/65Uppevaltab_zps7f611a03.jpg) (http://s44.photobucket.com/user/firetrainer/media/Original%20Uni-body%20%20Pictures/65Uppevaltab_zps7f611a03.jpg.html)


And one that was correctly (or as Ford wanted them) blacked out ;)

(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f49/firetrainer/Original%20Uni-body%20%20Pictures/66Uppevaltabblkout_zps3ea1c29f.jpg) (http://s44.photobucket.com/user/firetrainer/media/Original%20Uni-body%20%20Pictures/66Uppevaltabblkout_zps3ea1c29f.jpg.html)


................ no evidence of the pronounced body line or "crease" at the center of the grill filler. It does appear that something is not standard Mustang issue.

To me it looks like standard Mustang issue - and 66 Shelby ;) - no "crease" down the center on those or at least one large enough to stand out in that picture from that angle when compared to a 65 for example


(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f49/firetrainer/66%20Mustang/66grill_zpsfa4c59b7.jpg) (http://s44.photobucket.com/user/firetrainer/media/66%20Mustang/66grill_zpsfa4c59b7.jpg.html)





Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on June 02, 2014, 07:19:26 AM
   Respectfully to all, that metal piece is not a tab used in conjuction with the normal latch mechanism. It may in fact be part of the center piece, especially if it's a preproduction part.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: J_Speegle on June 02, 2014, 09:38:41 AM
Another shot from the backside of the lower tab

(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f49/firetrainer/66%20Mustang/66grilllowertab_zpse33f2b47.jpg) (http://s44.photobucket.com/user/firetrainer/media/66%20Mustang/66grilllowertab_zpse33f2b47.jpg.html)

Respectfully it appears to be in the exact same spot (comparing it to the relief in the top of the upper valance) of the car in Georges picture with the 66 grill and such

If I recall correctly the original picture was just of a 66 carry over car in a parking area at a race track - would not expect a regular production car would normally have any out of the ordinary parts on it other than what was being installed at San Jose at the end of 65 production as far as body parts


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on June 02, 2014, 10:29:06 AM
   Since mine is white with no stripes, I'll see if I can duplicate the angle and get the same effect. The picture is a little grainy and looked to me like a strip of metal coming down from the chrome center piece . Jeff I see what you are getting at .
      Randy


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM6S087 on June 02, 2014, 01:07:27 PM
If I recall correctly the original picture was just of a 66 carry over car in a parking area at a race track -

The picture of this car was identified as "A '66 Carryover Car at Riverside" when it was first posted here. Although it's quite possible that it is a carryover, I see nothing in the picture that would make that conclusive. The Cragar wheels and white paint indicate that it "could" be a carryover. But it could also be a standard production 1966 car, since the use of Cragars continued beyond car 252.

If any of you spot anything in the picture that would clear this up, please post that info.

Steve


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on June 02, 2014, 03:26:08 PM
     Steve,
       "To me"  it looks like the front arms have been dropped by the position of the tire to the top of the wheel well. The other thing is the angle of the tach is "up " a bit more than the '66s which had the spacers under the tach bracket. I know it's possible none of this stopped at 252 and started at 253 but those are two characteristics I remember from the three I've owned in the past. This is just "to me".


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM6S087 on June 02, 2014, 10:08:51 PM
     Steve,
       "To me"  it looks like the front arms have been dropped by the position of the tire to the top of the wheel well. The other thing is the angle of the tach is "up " a bit more than the '66s which had the spacers under the tach bracket. I know it's possible none of this stopped at 252 and started at 253 but those are two characteristics I remember from the three Iv'e owned in the past. This is just "to me".

Great detail observations. I did not notice either of those.

Steve


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on June 03, 2014, 07:18:43 AM
     Jeff,
       Lasy night I tried to get the effect shown in the picture. it was tricky but at the right distance and angle , it looked similar. There is a really small window of being off . Must have been photographer's luck.
       Randy


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on June 03, 2014, 09:17:19 AM
Well, we're down to about the last dozen of George's 8x10 photos. When this thread was started, it was to share his 'unseen photos' and I didn't originally think that we would be posting the photos in his collection that we knew had been published before. (His collection of small photos that we'll be starting next and his R-Model photos fall into that 'unseen' catagory). But what we've learned through this process is that not all members had seen the photos that we ourselves were familiar with. Not all of them had purchased the books that they appeared in, for example. Plus the feedback that we received from members that even though they may have seen them before, they were different here because they weren't cropped and were of much better resolution than could be reproduced in a magazine. So we feel that including them here would still serve a purpose, because they are quality scans of quality photos, and now even hi-res versions are available upon request -that has proven popular and has been utilized by many Forum members.

Plus, I just never tire of seeing these classic photos myself.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM6S087 on June 03, 2014, 09:32:59 AM
     Jeff,
       Lasy night I tried to get the effect shown in the picture. it was tricky but at the right distance and angle , it looked similar. There is a really small window of being off . Must have been photographer's luck.
       Randy

So what did you conclude about the little white protrusion below the grill joint cover? A white painted mounting tab (that was not blacked out)? Something else?

Steve


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on June 03, 2014, 09:35:43 AM
Here you can see Carroll Shelby about to give a ride in P/1018 - Shelby American's demonstrator car. It was an Imperial Maroon Production Racing Coupe.
It's an uncropped view that shows a 427 Cobra at lower left that is not usually seen.
It's also a nice view of the Cobra Caravan rig and the hole in the blast wall.

George notes: "You can see eight GT350's, two with top stripes & six without. The car facing the blast wall with no top stripes directly in back of the Ford GT has quarter windows, a tach and no back up lights. It could be a Carryover." 

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Shelby_about_to_give_a_ride_in_P-1018.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: ChicagoChris on June 03, 2014, 09:50:08 AM
These pics are great!  It makes taking a break from the job fun and provides plenty of day dream material.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM6S087 on June 03, 2014, 10:11:54 AM
Here you can see Carroll Shelby about to give a ride in P/1018 - Shelby American's demonstrator car. It was an Imperial Maroon Production Racing Coupe.
It's an uncropped view that shows a 427 Cobra at lower left that is not usually seen.
It's also a nice view of the Cobra Caravan rig and the hole in the blast wall.

George notes: "You can see eight GT350's, two with top stripes & six without. The car facing the blast wall with no top stripes directly in back of the Ford GT has quarter windows, a tach and no back up lights. It could be a Carryover." 

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Shelby_about_to_give_a_ride_in_P-1018.jpg)

Fantastic!

In the original photo, can you read the license plate of that possible carryover?

Thanks,
Steve


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on June 03, 2014, 10:32:15 AM
      Steve,
         At "just the right height, angle , and distance" , I was able to see what Jeff suggests. One foot forward , backward or sideways and it doesn't look the same at all. So I'll say "probable". LOL
      Randy


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM6S087 on June 03, 2014, 12:04:17 PM
      Steve,
         At "just the right height, angle , and distance" , I was able to see what Jeff suggests. One foot forward , backward or sideways and it doesn't look the same at all. So I'll say "probable". LOL
      Randy

Thank you to Jeff for offering the solution this mystery. And thank you to Randy, for your time and effort in proving that solution to be correct... or at least "probable." as you put it.

Steve


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM6S087 on June 03, 2014, 12:11:37 PM
About the latest photo.

As previously pointed out, the car in the red circle is almost certainly a carryover. The quarter windows and dash tach indicate a 1966 GT350. The lack of backup lights indicates a carryover.

The car in the green circle looks like a standard production 1966 GT350. It is dark in color with light colored stripes, and it has backup lights. (Look closely under the trailer for this one.)

Most of the rest look like they “may” be 1965 GT350s. What do the rest of you eagle-eyes see?

Steve


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on June 04, 2014, 09:05:07 AM
"With the '66 side stripes I would think this R-Model is from the last group completed. This shot was taken on the north east corner of LAX in the area where the test rack would be and they are in back of the blast wall close to airport property. The hangar we see was for the production cars and beyond is Imperial Highway. I would guess that they might possibly be taking this car and the Ford GT for a drive. In a previous picture we saw Shelby giving a ride in the Ford GT to one of the group. The '66 GT 350's on the far right are lined up just like we have seen in a couple of our previous posts but we always saw them from the front and now we see them from the rear because we are at the corner of the property near the airport fence." - George

This car has Goodyear Blue Dots on it, and I don't think I have ever seen them used on an R-Model before. It also has a Cobra center cap on the steering wheel, some did and some didn't as we recall.
That's Shelby by the windshield post and the cars on the far right are possibly Hertz cars or maybe red or green cars, we just can't tell from the photo.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/R-Model_at_LAX.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM6S on June 04, 2014, 09:24:14 AM
At the rear of the door, between body lines...is that a door protector or just the gap between doon and quarter panel? Also, it looks like the pinch welds seam has not been blacked out; probably deleted along with all the underbody sound deadener.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on June 04, 2014, 09:35:46 AM
The hi-res scan shows that it is not a door protector, those were always slid onto the edge/outside of the door on the contour below the door lock.
It's definitely something inside the door jamb, possibly the striker plate itself. I don't know if R-Models had a beefier striker plate assembly for racing or not.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: thefordshow on June 04, 2014, 10:46:17 AM
  Its also possible the the black out was painted over when the 1/4's and front fender lips were redone. [the 1/4 to door  and door to fender look to be shades off color]


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: alexgt350h on June 04, 2014, 10:56:25 AM
Is there anyway to date this last picture? - Brent -


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM6S087 on June 04, 2014, 11:37:21 AM
Is there anyway to date this last picture? - Brent -

One clue is the 1966 GT350s in the top-right. Since they are painted something other than white they must be standard production 1966 cars. That would put this photo mid-November 1965 at the earliest. But I'm guessing December '65 or early '66 is more likely. Any other ideas out there?

Steve


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: s2ms on June 04, 2014, 02:05:58 PM
The row parked 66 GT350's look to be in the same location as the color picture on page 13 of this thread showing a bunch of red 66 GT350's parked in the same, or very similar, way.

Dave


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: alexgt350h on June 04, 2014, 07:23:44 PM
I was hoping that those cars off to the top right were a group of black Hertz cars. My wife's car #452 was there in early Dec. 65. - Brent- pcorn


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: 6s1802 on June 04, 2014, 09:26:50 PM
Gee look at that, the blue dots don't line up with the valve stems.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: shelbymann1970 on June 04, 2014, 10:18:02 PM
Gee look at that, the blue dots don't line up with the valve stems.
I am not familiar with what went on back then in 65  but wheels we built for decades the wheels were offset at the valve stem which lined up with the #1 bolt hole. Tires are never perfectly balanced so when they leave the tire factory they are marked with their offset with a sticker. When the tires were put on at the factory the workers were supposed to line the dot up with the valvestem hole. This min the amount of lead weights on a wheel. Multiply 5 wheels times the # of cars you build a year and the savings in real. For years I would pass car haulers and see the green or orange dots and see if indeed they were lined up with the valve stem. They were pretty close all the time.  Have you ever watch a tire store worker put a new tire on and balance it a few times and then break it down and ROTATE the tire and start again? They don't get a "factory luxury of a sticker on the tire from the tire companies. Gary


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: 06 GT on June 04, 2014, 11:02:46 PM
And one that was correctly (or as Ford wanted them) blacked out ;)

(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f49/firetrainer/Original%20Uni-body%20%20Pictures/66Uppevaltabblkout_zps3ea1c29f.jpg) (http://s44.photobucket.com/user/firetrainer/media/Original%20Uni-body%20%20Pictures/66Uppevaltabblkout_zps3ea1c29f.jpg.html)

AC condenser??????


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on June 05, 2014, 08:42:36 AM
"This is by no means a rare picture, but this one is uncropped, original and crystal clear. This is the main Imperial Highway entrance to Shelby American. The small guard shack would be a few feet to our right and some employee cars are parked to the left. We see the small office building in front of us (I sure would like to have that sign) and the west side hangar in back of it. I remember going thru this front office glass door to a front reception area that had a table loaded with literature. As I stated in the past I still have everything I got that day. One piece that sticks out among the others is a single sided black & white Ford GT spec sheet. By the way, this small building was demolished many years ago. On the far right in the background I see two white GT 350's with 15" steel wheels and no side stripes." - George

The car is 6S051, a Factory supercharged carryover car with unique side stripes and no top stripes.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/6S051_-_Factory_supercharged_car_at_LAX.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: terlingua11 on June 05, 2014, 09:35:35 AM
I didn't realize until now how small looking that main office is. If I was inclined to build a garage to store my cars, and had the space, it looks like that would be really easy to replicate. Would make for one super cool garage! Right down to the reproduction of the sign.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: acman63 on June 05, 2014, 10:16:23 AM
"This is by no means a rare picture, but this one is uncropped, original and crystal clear. This is the main Imperial Highway entrance to Shelby American. The small guard shack would be a few feet to our right and some employee cars are parked to the left. We see the small office building in front of us (I sure would like to have that sign) and the west side hangar in back of it. I remember going thru this front office glass door to a front reception area that had a table loaded with literature. As I stated in the past I still have everything I got that day. One piece that sticks out among the others is a single sided black & white Ford GT spec sheet. By the way, this small building was demolished many years ago. On the far right in the background I see two white GT 350's with 15" steel wheels and no side stripes." - George

The car is 6S051, a Factory supercharged carryover car with unique side stripes and no top stripes.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/6S051_-_Factory_supercharged_car_at_LAX.jpg)


We still have a limited number of these  051 Posters of this shot for the Museum $15 each plus tube postage!   they arent on the site www.shelbyamericancollection.org but you can contact us directly  to obtain one


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: J_Speegle on June 05, 2014, 05:17:49 PM
AC condenser??????

Wasn't a Shelby example just a Mustang one - same plant same details generally for 95% or more of the car ;)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on June 06, 2014, 08:23:26 AM
"This 289 Cobra is parked in the front employee parking lot at the Shelby American LAX Factory. The Cobra truck is parked inside the fence in front of one of the hangars." - George

The semi trailer in this photo shows only a white circle on it, but in a previous photo posted here of the front gate at LAX, it can be seen in the background with the 'CS' logo inside the white circle. In that same LAX front gate photo you can see the same wood parking strips that are painted white as shown here. The chrome wires show up nicely and there's an added protective strip on the front of the rear fender lip of this car.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/289_in_the_employee_parking_lot_at_LAX.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: acman63 on June 06, 2014, 11:54:37 AM
this cobra might be Carol Connors car,  has a center stripe


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: KRANKY on June 06, 2014, 02:05:37 PM
That's not Carol Conner's Cobra....wrong color.  What was Vic Damone's Cobra chassis number that he was rented?  It had the same center stripe and was a later model Cobra with the side vents?

Kranky


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Doug C on June 06, 2014, 03:12:38 PM
Carol Connors Cobra? Strip looks to be a different color.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: richstang on June 06, 2014, 04:05:33 PM
I don't think that is a center stripe on this Cobra in George Walters photo. I think that is just a reflection from the trailer behind it. You can even see the white COBRA letters further back on the hood.

I can't recall seeing a thin black protective strip in front of the rear wheel arch on a street 289 Cobra. Is that something that was done in production?


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on June 07, 2014, 08:16:31 AM
I don't think that is a center stripe on this Cobra in George Walters photo. I think that is just a reflection from the trailer behind it. You can even see the white COBRA letters further back on the hood.
                                                                                 (Watters)  

I agree that it could initially appear that it does, but the hi-res scan of this photo shows that it definitely does not have a hood stripe. The white stripe on the bottom of the trailer is the white line on this side of the Cobra hood emblem.
And as richstang points out, you can see the COBRA letters reflected on the hood.



Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on June 07, 2014, 09:28:32 AM
Here is CSX2287 at LAX prior to leaving for Le Mans '65. This photo shows well the only Daytona Coupe with a straight cowl/door line (and a narrow gap between them) and a straight-edged rear spoiler. It's also a good view of the nearly straight-back exit of its side pipes which was mentioned in a previous post when it was shown on a trailer.
We can't make out the details of the round object above the #2 roundel, but we believe it to be something to do with a metal cover during transport for an air vent - we're hoping a member here can help us with that.
I am not a fortunate owner of the 'Daytona COBRA Coupes' book by Brock/Friedman/Stauffer, but it's probably shown better in there.   

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/CSX2287_at_LAX_prior_to_leaving_for_Le_Mans_1965.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on June 07, 2014, 10:05:17 AM
s2ms has made a couple of keen observations about the '66 GT 350 at the far right of this photo, and I made another one myself.
A blow up of it shows that he was right about two things - it does not appear to have a dash tach and it DOES have a '65 style grille centerpiece!
There was speculation that this car may have been 5S319, and it seems possible in that '319 does not have a dash tach in the two blast wall photos posted here previously.

But then I noticed that this car doesn't have a Mustang grille emblem either, and those same two blast wall photos clearly show that '319 had a grille emblem and a standard '66 style grille centerpiece.
So the speculation continues I guess.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Meeting_at_LAX_with_Ford_Executives.jpg)

I have no idea what the round object could be where the Mustang grille emblem should be - it looks too large to be a Cobra badge and appears to be behind the grille.
(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Note_1965_style_grille_centerpiece.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: bpoe on June 08, 2014, 08:16:52 PM
s2ms
I have no idea what the round object could be where the Mustang grille emblem should be - it looks too large to be a Cobra badge and appears to be behind the grille.
(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Note_1965_style_grille_centerpiece.jpg)
Being circular it suspiciously looks like Photo damage. Have you checked the original photo to see if that's not a speck on the photo or a damaged spot maybe caused by drop of liquid?


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Coralsnake on June 09, 2014, 05:59:22 AM
Looks like a Cobra badge.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Airman on June 09, 2014, 06:33:21 AM
Looks like a Cobra badge.
+1


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Dan Case on June 09, 2014, 06:37:00 AM
Looks like a Cobra badge.

+1, size wise a S1CS-B, finish wise the smooth chrome plating version


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: richstang on June 09, 2014, 07:32:32 AM
Looks like a Cobra badge.

You get the gold star. I was thinking it look like a Cobra emblem but it was just a bit to out of focus for me to be certain. It definitely looks to be in front of the grille.
That would have been a nice detail for production if it had happened!

Is it me or do the Le Mans stripes have more taper than the typical production models?



Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on June 09, 2014, 10:29:13 AM
Being circular it suspiciously looks like Photo damage. Have you checked the original photo to see if that's not a speck on the photo or a damaged spot maybe caused by drop of liquid?
It's definitely not photo damage, there is no speck there and no drop of liquid either.

Is it me or do the Le Mans stripes have more taper than the typical production models?
I would agree that the Le Mans stripes look more tapered here than they usually do.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Grumpy on June 09, 2014, 11:22:23 AM

I would agree that the Le Mans stripes look more tapered here than they usually do.

Oh NO !!! Time for us to redo our stripes !!!! :knock


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Bob Gaines on June 09, 2014, 01:52:33 PM
Oh NO !!! Time for us to redo our stripes !!!! :knock
It would only be appropriate if you can prove you are the owner of THAT car  ;) .


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: J_Speegle on June 09, 2014, 03:29:05 PM
Looks like a Cobra badge.
+1  it doesn't look like its behind the grill but attached to the grill - if you follow the grill lines across in the picture


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on June 09, 2014, 11:33:25 PM
Here is another photo of Ken Miles testing a 1966 model when he was all dressed up in a suit. We have all seen a couple of the other photos taken during this road test, but I believe this one to be less known than the others. As in the others though, he certainly seems to be enjoying himself.

The style of Cobra tach shows this to be a mid-late production car.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Ken_Miles_Hertz_car_road_test.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on June 10, 2014, 01:18:15 AM
Here's a sharpened, untouched 1200 dpi scan of this grille feature. The Cobra looks even more apparent now, and is on the front of the grille, as has been pointed out by others here.
The black 'bar' across it is puzzling though, it's definitely something that was in the photograph, not a flaw on top of the photo paper itself.
Perhaps black tape to hide the word 'COBRA' for whatever reason? Look how the black bar ends at the OD, with the same arc as the circle itself.                                                                   

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/1200_dpi_-_grille_emblem_-_sharpened.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on June 10, 2014, 07:16:51 AM
   Possibly a "new badge" would have said GT350 and that could be the reason COBRA was blocked out. Just a guess.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on June 10, 2014, 09:06:23 AM
Another photo that many may have seen, but with a few new details & observations. We have recently re-discovered a rarely seen aerial photo of LAX looking east. It clearly shows the hangar doors as seen here.

"This photo was taken on the west side of the west hangar. I always thought the white '66 on the left was a carryover car. What is interesting on the R-Model is that even though it has '66 tape side stripes, it still has a '65 grille, not a '66 one. Also, the front apron has round brake duct holes rather than the oblong ones that the later R-Models had." - George

This R-Model has Blue Dot tires on it and a noticeable 'lip' all the way down on the front of the rear wheel opening - I think it is the same car recently posted here that has Carroll Shelby standing by the windshield.
Note no top stripes on the white '66, a possible Hertz car next to it and the steel wheel car on the right does not have side stripes yet.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/R-Model___1966_models_at_LAX.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: s2ms on June 10, 2014, 09:10:09 AM
...The style of Cobra tach shows this to be a mid-late production car and of note is that there is no brake warning sticker on either the dash pad or the dash panel...

Interesting photo.  Don't think I ever made the connection with the other more well known photo, this car has the later style tach (Cobra on the bottom) but is a 4-speed so still a fairly early car.  IIRC that last 4-speed Hertz car was in the low 600's.  I guess if this photo was taken later in the year it could have already had it's tach replaced...

Dave


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on June 10, 2014, 09:45:46 AM
   What makes us think it's a Hertz? All I see is black interior which was common except for the two blue cars. Is there something in the original that says it's a Hertz?
      Randy


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: s2ms on June 10, 2014, 09:59:15 AM
Randy,

I guess the assumption is this is from the same photo shoot as the more common shot of Miles testing a Hertz car. Don't have a copy of that photo handy to look for details like is it a 4-speed and confirmed Hertz car. Maybe someone with that photo handy can comment on that...

Dave


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on June 10, 2014, 11:13:45 PM
Here is another photo from the Hertz car road test. I'm not sure what publication they may have been originally photographed for, but there are a few different photos and some of them have been seen in various publications over the years.

Check out where the Ford data plate had been installed - the upper rivet is now removed but the lower one is still in there.   

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Ken_Miles_Hertz_car_road_test~0.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on June 11, 2014, 12:10:05 AM
Another classic LAX photo of an R-Model, this one with a great background subject. The trailer now has the 'CS' logo in the white circle, in another photo posted here it was just a plain white circle.
This car has the usual features of late R-Model production - the '66 side stripes, '66 grille and the vertical front brake cooling ducts (with the round holes covered by riveted on discs).
The photo shows a couple other details of interest too, one of which is the diamond shaped logo on the tires, but the other detail is something I never noticed before and have never read about:
Check out the blacked out rear view mirror and mounting bar! A hi-res scan of the photo shows it to be a black-krinkle finish like the '66 valve covers.
I'm not sure what type of Goodyears those are, but with that stripe and the diamond logo they sure look good - maybe someone here knows.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/R-Model_on_tarmac_at_LAX.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on June 11, 2014, 08:55:17 AM
George doesn't have any info on this photo other than that it's Ken Miles and Alejandro de Tomaso at LAX.
Do others here know what it is that they are looking at, or what involvement de Tomaso had with Shelby American?

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Ken_Miles_and_Alejandro_de_Tomaso_at_LAX.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: s2ms on June 11, 2014, 09:20:29 AM
...Check out where the Ford data plate had been installed - the upper rivet is now removed but the lower one is still in there.   

Great photo, still has the door edge guard...


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: 6R07mi on June 11, 2014, 09:48:07 AM
George doesn't have any info on this photo other than that it's Ken Miles and Alejandro de Tomaso at LAX.
Do others here know what it is that they are looking at, or what involvement de Tomaso had with Shelby American?

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Ken_Miles_and_Alejandro_de_Tomaso_at_LAX.jpg)

Looks like a MK-I 289 chassis without the transaxle installed..

for reference I'm looking at this photo from Sebring 66, Essex Wire car.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on June 11, 2014, 09:59:00 AM
6R07mi - Nice job - Thanks!


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on June 11, 2014, 10:02:44 AM
     The intake looks like magnesium and it has C6FE (GT-40) heads. Still a normal 8.2 deck height block.
    Randy


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on June 11, 2014, 10:37:56 AM
or what involvement de Tomaso had with Shelby American?

Answering one of my own questions here: The De Tomaso P70 Prototype.

"A 1965 joint venture between Carroll Shelby, Pete Brock (who designed it) & De Tomaso, which was stillborn when Shelby's attention turned to the Ford GT project."
(Muscle Car Review - Feb 2014) 


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on June 11, 2014, 10:55:12 AM
    The earlier driving shot of Ken Miles is a different car than the shots of him in the HertZ car. The COBRA logo on the tach is at the top on the Hertz car is the give away for me.
      Randy


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Tired Sheep on June 11, 2014, 07:10:50 PM
Best thread ever!

 pcorn


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on June 12, 2014, 09:16:06 AM
   What makes us think it's a Hertz? All I see is black interior which was common except for the two blue cars. Is there something in the original that says it's a Hertz?
      Randy

No, good point. There was nothing in the original that says it was a Hertz. It's just that it was one of six photos of him in a 1966 model wearing the same contrasting slacks & suitcoat with a long sleeved white shirt and the same wristwatch. Three of those photos are a confirmed Hertz car at rest, the other three are of him driving a '66 that is now not confirmed as a Hertz car.

I'll go back and edit that post to remove the Hertz wording. 


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on June 12, 2014, 09:27:13 AM
    The earlier driving shot of Ken Miles is a different car than the shots of him in the HertZ car. The COBRA logo on the tach is at the top on the Hertz car is the give away for me.
      Randy

Good eye Randy. I had not caught the different positions of the Cobra logo between the two sets of photos. Because he was wearing the same clothes in all six photos and three of the photos were a very obvious Hertz car, it just didn't occur to me that there were two different cars.
                                     Chug a Lug


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on June 12, 2014, 09:42:02 AM
These two photos are just to comment about the Brake Warning sticker on Hertz cars.

I had originally made an observation/comment about this Ken Miles photo being a Hertz car that didn't have a sticker on the dash pad or dash panel.
But I then had to ammend that as there is no confirmation that it was a Hertz car for sure.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Ken_Miles_Hertz_car_road_test.jpg)

However, check out this photo of Jerry Titus driving a confirmed Hertz car (6S598) in the April 1966 issue of 'Sports Car Graphic':
None there either...
(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/6S598_dashboard.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on June 12, 2014, 10:19:20 AM
If ever there was a Shelby American History photo - it could be this one of GT350 Project Manager Chuck Cantwell at LAX.
Forgive my wordiness, but photos like this bring it out of me...

Chuck looks Classic Cool 1960's - neat, clean cut, thin tie, the shoes.
And 'his' car, the iconic 1965 GT350?
It's clean, purposeful, stylish design is still striking to me after almost 50 years.
How any object can be around for a half-century and there isn't one thing I would change on it - that's a hallmark of good design, in my opinion.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/GT_350_Project_Manager_Chuck_Cantwell_at_LAX.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on June 12, 2014, 11:23:59 AM
   None on 6S477 either and it was a "brake test " car ! HeadSpin


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Wedgeman on June 12, 2014, 11:48:58 AM
6S531 had the brake warning decal when I got it in 1970...


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: acman63 on June 12, 2014, 01:03:24 PM
If ever there was a Shelby American History photo - it could be this one of GT350 Project Manager Chuck Cantwell at LAX.
Forgive my wordiness, but photos like this bring it out of me...

Chuck looks Classic Cool 1960's - neat, clean cut, thin tie, the shoes.
And 'his' car, the iconic 1965 GT350?
It's clean, purposeful, stylish design is still striking to me after almost 50 years.
How any object can be around for a half-century and there isn't one thing I would change on it - that's a hallmark of good design, in my opinion.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/GT_350_Project_Manager_Chuck_Cantwell_at_LAX.jpg)


you forgot to mention that they lined up the valve stem correctly!   ;D


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on June 12, 2014, 01:22:10 PM
 Hysterical


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: ChicagoChris on June 13, 2014, 08:45:13 AM
I agree 100% on the clean cut, clean shaven look of the 1960's.  I'm 54 and it reminds me of when I was a young boy.
Working for Ford Motor in the mid 1980's out of the LA District office we were required to wear suits everyday; long gone today I'm sure.
Having called on Don Kott Ford (cancer '09 I believe) former Downey Ford and Peyton Cramer F/LM in the South Bay, you expected to look/act professional.
Those were great times to be in the auto industry.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: bpoe on June 13, 2014, 02:29:16 PM
If ever there was a Shelby American History photo - it could be this one of GT350 Project Manager Chuck Cantwell at LAX.
Forgive my wordiness, but photos like this bring it out of me...

Chuck looks Classic Cool 1960's - neat, clean cut, thin tie, the shoes.
And 'his' car, the iconic 1965 GT350?
It's clean, purposeful, stylish design is still striking to me after almost 50 years.
How any object can be around for a half-century and there isn't one thing I would change on it - that's a hallmark of good design, in my opinion.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/GT_350_Project_Manager_Chuck_Cantwell_at_LAX.jpg)
Look at that big chunk of "what is that?" in the center of the lower grille trim....we have looked at another car at this same area I know, bit this looks even different.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on June 13, 2014, 03:37:04 PM
Members who own 1967 Shelbys have been clamoring for more photos after that close up of Carroll with all the '67's in the background at LAX, but this is the only other one George has.
It's still a fascinating view of the production line in the east hangar at LAX though.
Here we can see #0231, a GT500 that was completed on 1/3/67 and shipped on 1/1/67 to Eger Motors, Inc. of McKeesport, PA - and that it originally had Magstars.
I always thought how cool it would be to own a car that was in such a famous photo as this.

George notes that only the second car has side stripes so far. Many things about how the production sequence worked here would be interesting to know.
Also of interest to me is that the photographer seems to have focused on the second car rather than the first, the side stripes are razor sharp in the photo, but not the front of 0231.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/The_1967_production_line_at_LAX_%28%230231_in_front%29.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: richstang on June 13, 2014, 05:14:39 PM
Yes, I was one of those hoping for more 67's pictures. Thanks for sharing this one!

It would indeed be interesting to know the what the plan was for production sequence. I find it curious that the rear fiberglass is painted in body color, and the nose fiberglass is in primer. I just can't believe they would have masked off the nose to paint it, but why else would they fit the fiberglass on before it was painted? (perhaps to make adjustments for the hood fitment?)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on June 14, 2014, 06:42:11 PM
   richstang,
      They all have primered noses. It would be my "guess" that the nose required much more "fitting than the decklid. At least from the complaints I remember hearing about poor fitment. That would save "handling mishaps" on new paint. '67 had a new production manager, so Bruce Junor ( former production manager) wouldn't be able to help in this case. Also notice the cars in the back appear to still have stock steel hoods. ( or am I wrong?)
    Randy


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: richstang on June 14, 2014, 08:43:16 PM
Randy,
Those are all fair points. Between the stock fenders, Shelby nose, and Shelby hood, I could understand the difficulty to get it aligned in a production line where time is of the essence. I don't understand why they would have installed the upper grille and fog lights before painting the nose if they did mask it. I imagine many cars would have some overspray on the black painted components if that was the method.

Yes, I agree those are stock hoods on the second and forth car in line. I see the recess for the exterior décor group hood signal/vents. Perhaps the stock hoods were kept in place to help align the fiberglass nose before removal. That would make sense within your theory.

Also interesting to see the rear sear folding assembly up on the roofs on all but the first car in line. I'm sure it was an easy way to keep the parts together with the car as it moved down the line, until they got the roll bar installed.

I sure wish there were more '67 Production pictures. Oh well, this is certainly way better than nothing!


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: car 26-JD on June 14, 2014, 10:36:18 PM
Guys, I'm inclinded to think being early cars they have the Ford Mustang steel frame structure showing the openings for the vents and lights but they have the fiberglass tops bonded to them and have been painted.  The Shelby hoods are longer and using a stock mustang hood that was shorter would not be that benificial?

Just a thought...JD


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Wedgeman on June 15, 2014, 12:26:36 AM
I do not see rollbars in the cars with the fold down backseat assy. on the roof...possibly they were not installed yet ?


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on June 15, 2014, 04:22:29 PM
We've been looking at this mysterious grille emblem on that 1966 GT350 in the Ford Execs Meeting photo at LAX.
Then I noticed Chuck Cantwell's tie tack on a hi-res scan of that photo of him at LAX.
Just sayin' . . . . .

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/The_dark_bar_on_the_grille_emblem.jpg)

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Chuck_Cantwell_tie_tack~0.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on June 16, 2014, 09:14:02 AM
Does it get any better than this? I didn't think so either, which is why I saved it for last. This is the last of George's 8 x 10 factory era photos - tomorrow we'll start with his 3 1/2" x 5" photos.
 
This one has everything that says 1965 was a very good year - a southern California location, a pretty gal and two of Shelby's finest.

I believe this to be a 'narrow-hip' Cobra, and in the background, the two different '65 wheel choices can be seen.
George adds that this photo was taken on the west side of the west hangar and that the Cobra has a Hi-Performance Motors '4101' dealer plate and black Halibrand wheels.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/A_pretty_gal_with_two_of_Shelby_s_finest.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Rodney T on June 16, 2014, 07:06:29 PM
  I agree with JD as in the early period of production, those are the metal underlined hoods on the cars.  How about the interior of the upper scoop of the striped car.  Looks not to be blacked out...yet.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Dmxf on June 17, 2014, 05:27:24 AM
My guess is that is CSX3127


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on June 17, 2014, 08:46:28 AM
I was astonished when I found this 'little photo' in George's collection! It literally measures 2 1/2" x 3 1/2". I wanted to first post it here in its actual size so it would hit you like it did me. I immediately recognized it as Ken Miles' USRRC Factory Team car, CSX2431. But I wanted to know more . . . .

The post of it immediately following this one will be a suitable enlargement of it, along with a scan of the stamp info on the back of the photo - but first, George's story on it:

"This is an ORIGINAL photo that I got from a friend back in the 1970's. I have had it in my collection ever since and have not shared it with anyone till today. There has never been any copies made from it. I have always thought that it was taken at Riverside but I am not sure. The close up detail, clarity and color of this picture is sensational."

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Actual_size_%282_5_x_3_5%29_front.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: acman63 on June 17, 2014, 08:51:52 AM
can you make out the tech inspection sticker on the left front?


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on June 17, 2014, 09:08:04 AM
Here is this amazing photo enlarged, also an enlarged view of the stamp on the back of the photo. I can prove that this is CSX2431 because of a 3 1/2" x 5" black & white photo that George also has of it, and which we will be posting next. But for now I want to discuss the L R E logo on the door. It's the first time I've ever seen the car without Ken Miles' BRDC (British Racing Driver's Club) decal on the doors. The words 'Racing' and 'Enterprise' seem to be below the large L R E letters, but I can't make out what the L may stand for. Any info on the car with this logo is not listed in the Registry either. But CSX2431 was sold on 3/31/66 to Eric Hauser of Hollywood, CA and by 10/66 it was repainted candy purple metallic with bright yellow highlights (!). So as this photo is date stamped 'MAY 66' (don't know what the 'PA' may mean) it is apparently during that six month time span of Hauser's ownership.

Hopefully KRANKY can offer some more info about the location and what the L R E logo is all about.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/CSX2431_with_LRE_logo.jpg)

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Back_of_photo_enlarged_-_MAY_66PA.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on June 17, 2014, 09:16:52 AM
can you make out the tech inspection sticker on the left front?

No, unfortunately not - it is just 'whitewashed' out in that sunlight.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: propayne on June 17, 2014, 09:18:39 AM
If I'm not mistaken, the mark on the back of the pic would be when it was developed? - not necessarily when it was taken.

Love this thread  Chug a Lug

- Phillip


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Coralsnake on June 17, 2014, 09:58:17 AM
Cant say for sure, but when I assisted with the research on the red 1967/68 convertible prototype the location looked similar. Riverside had a lot of hay bales and telephones in the semiarid desert. Looks close to me.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on June 17, 2014, 10:07:45 AM
If I'm not mistaken, the mark on the back of the pic would be when it was developed? - not necessarily when it was taken.
- Phillip

I agree with that, yes.
Depending on how prompt someone was in getting their pictures developed after taking them would be how accurate the date actually is.
However, any date stamp is quite significant in itself in that most photos don't even have them at all and so it gives us a 'time window' that we would not ordinarily have.
And in this particular case, we know that that door logo was not on the car during Shelby American's ownership up to 3/31/66 and that the car was repainted a different color by 10/66.
So a date stamp of May 1966 suggests that it was taken during April or May of 1966, in my opinion.



Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: KRANKY on June 17, 2014, 01:20:52 PM
Hard to tell.....as Coralsnake suggested, it might be Riverside in early 1966 or somewhere else in SoCal (not Willow or Pomona) since most of the photos that you've posted are from this area.  At the end of the 1965 season 2431 was sent up to the San Francisco Auto Show at Brooks Hall (late November 1965).  I would have to say that SAI had not cleaned up the Cobra for the SF show....notice all of the rock chips on the oil cooler scoop.  This photo would also have to be prior to being loaned to the MGM (March 1966) when it was resprayed a darker color....I don't know if the paint companies were producing the the peel off paint back then that many companies use nowadays for commercial photo shoots.  I don't recognize the large decal on the door but from your early photo from the October 1965 Riverside races, it looks like it's on the passenger side door also.  I was thinking Lothar Racing Enterprises....(Lothar Motschebacher)

Kranky


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on June 17, 2014, 02:12:01 PM
   That IS Riverside . North end of the pits. The front straight and turn 1 are to the left in this picture.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on June 18, 2014, 08:59:01 AM
Here is that other rare photo of CSX2431 when in L R E livery.

George has no additional info on this black & white version - I hope gt350hr can ID the location of this photo too, just as he did for us with the color photo - Thanks gt350hr.
And KRANKY came thru as usual, I really think he is correct about what he thinks LRE stands for: LOTHAR RACING ENTERPRISES. A hi-res scan of the photo supports his theory.
After he suggested that, I looked at other photos of Lothar Motschenbacher driving, and this photo looks like the others of him - the same helmet & goggles. I think it's Lothar driving it in this photo. Thanks KRANKY.
Still of interest to me though, if that is indeed Lothar's logo on the car, was he 'sponsoring' it, or what may the connection have been?
I consider the time that CSX2431 was raced with this logo to be a small, previously unknown chapter in its life (and an interesting one at that) - hopefully even more can be learned about this time in its history.

Bringing George's photos to the Forum has repeatedly resulted in the additional information that we figured the collection of experts here could offer.   Chug a Lug

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/CSX2431_with_LRE_logo_on_doors.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on June 18, 2014, 09:56:34 AM
   That one is exiting turn 6 at Riverside for sure! I sat in those grandstands on that VERY day!
      Randy


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: KRANKY on June 18, 2014, 11:06:46 AM
Well I'm still waiting on information about the LRE logo....Lothar drove that particular Cobra for only one event....the October 1965 Riverside races.  Later on it was known as Motschenbacher Racing Enterprises.

Kranky


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on June 18, 2014, 03:30:31 PM
      I moved to Anaheim in 1960 and Lothar's shop was about 4 miles from my house , right along side the famous 5 freeway that at the time was only 2 lanes wide in both directions. ( now it's 6 and 7 wide!) I remember well when the shop burned too. What a mess. I used to get half worn road race tires from him and burn them up on the back of my Shelby.
    Randy


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on June 18, 2014, 10:56:16 PM
   That one is exiting turn 6 at Riverside for sure! I sat in those grandstands on that VERY day!
      Randy

Randy - Thanks for confirming the location as turn 6 at Riverside. Do you have any other recollections (photos?) of this car on that day?


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: KRANKY on June 18, 2014, 11:23:07 PM
All right an update on the LRE decal....Lothar Motschenbacher was sponsored by Lowell Racing Enterprises....not as I had guessed earlier Lothar Racing Enterprises.

Kranky


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on June 19, 2014, 07:12:16 AM
     No photos sadly. I've never been a "shutterbug". Now I wish I had as some find it hard to believe some of the stuff I've done and seen. Seems like just last weekend I was sitting in the HOT sun of turn 6  watching the GREATEST drivers in the world race around Riverside. I was lucky to be a "local" in those years.
     Randy


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on June 19, 2014, 08:38:27 AM
Well I'm still waiting on information about the LRE logo....Lothar drove that particular Cobra for only one event....the October 1965 Riverside races.  Later on it was known as Motschenbacher Racing Enterprises.
Kranky

All right an update on the LRE decal....Lothar Motschenbacher was sponsored by Lowell Racing Enterprises....not as I had guessed earlier Lothar Racing Enterprises.
Kranky

Kranky - Incredible work unraveling the LRE logo, thanks very much. Do you date both of those CSX2431 with LRE logo photos posted here as Riverside, October '65?
And if so, do you have any more info on why Lothar would be driving that car with 'outside sponsorship' while it was still under Shelby American's ownership?
I rechecked the photo that we posted here of him following the R-Model at Riverside in the #98 Cobra - I see what you mean that it looks like the LRE logo is on the doors in that photo too. 


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on June 19, 2014, 09:15:05 AM
Check out this Shelby American display at LAX. I don't know what 'event' this may have been, or if the #2 MKII is actually P/1046, the Ford GT that won Le Mans in 1966, but it would be nice to know. A hi-res scan clearly shows the COBRA chassis tag on the bulkhead (which you can see here) but you can't read the chassis number on the scan.
You can also see a Hertz car, an R-Model and a Group II Sedan.
George notes that this photo was taken behind the east hangar, and that the R-Model has the second generation front apron with vertical openings and a '66 style grille - also to notice the different color '66's in the background.

He has a closeup photo of a different display engine that we will be posting and you can see the engine in this photo behind it. But this is the only picture he has of this engine and I would like to know more about it already.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Event_at_LAX_-_not_known_if_this_is_P-1046.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Gary G (ta22) on June 19, 2014, 09:43:33 AM
Would that be Don Pike's Group II sedan?


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: 6R07mi on June 19, 2014, 09:54:00 AM
Check out this Shelby American display at LAX. I don't know what 'event' this may have been, or if the #2 MKII is actually P/1046, the Ford GT that won Le Mans in 1966, but it would be nice to know. A hi-res scan clearly shows the COBRA chassis tag on the bulkhead (which you can see here) but you can't read the chassis number on the scan.
You can also see a Hertz car, an R-Model and a Group II Sedan.
George notes that this photo was taken behind the east hangar, and that the R-Model has the second generation front apron with vertical openings and a '66 style grille - also to notice the different color '66's in the background.
He has a closeup photo of that display engine that we will be posting here as well.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Event_at_LAX_-_not_known_if_this_is_P-1046.jpg)


The MK-II appears to have the higher hump'd nose panel, correct for true MK-II,
also the Group II car is painted a dark color, the front valance panel opening appears to be non-production ( curved lower edge),
and the door number may be #69, is that the Don Pike built car?

Jim


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on June 19, 2014, 10:10:24 AM
Here's a cropped closeup - it does appear to be #69, as in the photo you posted.
It also looks like there's a drivers name on the roof.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Closeup_of_Group_II_Sedan.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: 2112 on June 19, 2014, 10:24:45 AM
Dang, That is a DOHC motor!


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on June 19, 2014, 10:32:37 AM
   That IS interesting!!!! The engine on the stand is a 255ci INDY engine with adaptors for Weber carbs. THAT is something I have never seen in all my years of doing this stuff. This was probably for use in one of the MK1 GT40's that tested with that engine. Obviously the INDY cars ran Hilborn injection and methanol.
    randy


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: acman63 on June 19, 2014, 11:21:21 AM
saw a dohc Indy engine in P103 and lobbied hard to get them to restore it with that in it but lost


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: 2112 on June 19, 2014, 11:32:20 AM
Did any of the GT40s compete successfully with the DOHC motor in?


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: KRANKY on June 19, 2014, 12:38:44 PM
Correct, 2431 at Riverside with Lothar as the driver sponsored by LRE (Lowell Racing Enterprises)  According to the time line, 2431 was readied after the October Riverside race for the San Francisco Auto Show at Brooks Hall at the end of November and then it was leased to MGM for the Elvis movie Spinout in March of 1966 and it had a repaint.  There were no races at Riverside on the schedule until the end of April 1966.  So the only logical answer would be all of the photos are from the same event.....October Riverside 1965.  As to why Lothar was driving a Team Cobra at the end of the season....well as I had mentioned earlier (this is just a guess since I've never talked to Lothar in person) after Lothar had an accident in his 427 about the mid-season, he sent the car back over to Shelby American to be repaired for the August Mid-Ohio race of which he complained to SAI about the poor repair and set up work for the suspension.  Eventually Lothar traded the 427 Cobra back in to Shelby American towards the end of the season and as probably a favor from SAI to make good to Lothar, they loaned him 2431 for the October 1965 Riverside races (this is just a guess.....).

As to the Indy engine used for competition.....I think the first example of the Indy engine was used in Gurney's Cobra for the 1963 2000Km at Daytona of which the plugs (water) popped in practice and the engine was hastily replaced just in time (down roughly a lap or two at the start for the lateness of the engine replacement).  As to the Indy engine in GT40s, well, the were used on and off during the 1964 season and were basically a failure.  They would simply not hold up to endurance racing even though they did post some impressive qualifying times during 1964....other GT40 experts should be able to confirm the history of the Indy engine for the GT40 program.

Kranky


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on June 19, 2014, 12:53:13 PM
    The DOHC was actually a fragile engine/ The mains were not torqued to the same value as the crank would bind if they were all @ the same torque. Ford also found that high RPMs and "endurance" racing were not a good match. 3-4 hours of sustained speed was FAR different than 12-24 hours of upshifts and downshifts. I do not remember the DOHC being in a Cobra. They ''may" have tried a pushrod 255 INDY engine but I can't see the DOHC fitting in the Cobra. There are some pictures of one in an early car ( probably 103 as suggested). I have never seen the Weber adaptors.
     Randy


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: 68countrysedan on June 19, 2014, 02:17:17 PM
According to the May 1964 issue of Sports Car Graphic, in a story by Jerry Titus, headlined, "New FORD GT for Le Mans," the original GT-40 engine was Ford's aluminum, pushrod "Indy" version of the "Fairlane V8."

In the "The Ford GT40 - Prototypes and Sports Cars, written by David Hodges and published in 1970, Hodges writes that the SA's "first move", when they took over the GT-40 program was to subsitute their ". . . 'Cobra' version of the 289 Fairlane engine for the Indianapolis unit."

The Cobra engine weighed a little more than the aluminum 255, but 75 pounds ". . .were saved by the elimination of the front-mounted oil tank and associated piping required by the dry sump Indianapolis unit."

Hodges also adds that Cobra wet sump was "very shallow" but it was problem free with baffling.



Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: 1109RWHP on June 19, 2014, 05:43:07 PM
(http://i744.photobucket.com/albums/xx86/1109RWHP/GT40/Picture098_zps4777531e.jpg) (http://s744.photobucket.com/user/1109RWHP/media/GT40/Picture098_zps4777531e.jpg.html)
(http://i744.photobucket.com/albums/xx86/1109RWHP/GT40/Picture099_zpsfd47af38.jpg) (http://s744.photobucket.com/user/1109RWHP/media/GT40/Picture099_zpsfd47af38.jpg.html)
(http://i744.photobucket.com/albums/xx86/1109RWHP/GT40/Picture095_zps28c8fc06.jpg) (http://s744.photobucket.com/user/1109RWHP/media/GT40/Picture095_zps28c8fc06.jpg.html)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: 6R07mi on June 19, 2014, 06:27:48 PM
According to the May 1964 issue of Sports Car Graphic, in a story by Jerry Titus, headlined, "New FORD GT for Le Mans," the original GT-40 engine was Ford's aluminum, pushrod "Indy" version of the "Fairlane V8."

In the "The Ford GT40 - Prototypes and Sports Cars, written by David Hodges and published in 1970, Hodges writes that the SA's "first move", when they took over the GT-40 program was to subsitute their ". . . 'Cobra' version of the 289 Fairlane engine for the Indianapolis unit."

The Cobra engine weighed a little more than the aluminum 255, but 75 pounds ". . .were saved by the elimination of the front-mounted oil tank and associated piping required by the dry sump Indianapolis unit."

Hodges also adds that Cobra wet sump was "very shallow" but it was problem free with baffling.

As mentioned before there was the 63 Indy 255 pushrod engine, and the 64 255 DOHC. The 1st prototype GT’s 101, 102, 103, 104 were initially built with the 63 Indy 255 PUSHROD engine, GT/105 was the 1st with the 289. The original intent was to use the DOHC engine for later competition cars.
regards, jim



Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on June 20, 2014, 07:40:21 AM
Correct, 2431 at Riverside with Lothar as the driver sponsored by LRE (Lowell Racing Enterprises)  According to the time line, 2431 was readied after the October Riverside race for the San Francisco Auto Show at Brooks Hall at the end of November and then it was leased to MGM for the Elvis movie Spinout in March of 1966 and it had a repaint.  There were no races at Riverside on the schedule until the end of April 1966.  So the only logical answer would be all of the photos are from the same event.....October Riverside 1965.  As to why Lothar was driving a Team Cobra at the end of the season....well as I had mentioned earlier (this is just a guess since I've never talked to Lothar in person) after Lothar had an accident in his 427 about the mid-season, he sent the car back over to Shelby American to be repaired for the August Mid-Ohio race of which he complained to SAI about the poor repair and set up work for the suspension.  Eventually Lothar traded the 427 Cobra back in to Shelby American towards the end of the season and as probably a favor from SAI to make good to Lothar, they loaned him 2431 for the October 1965 Riverside races (this is just a guess.....).
Kranky

Kranky - Your timeline & theory sounds very plausible. Thanks for tying up the loose ends to the questions that George's CSX2431 photos produced.   Chug a Lug


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on June 20, 2014, 07:54:26 AM
   The 255 pushrod engine really lacked the durability needed to go 24 hours. It had a tough time going for four! Around ten engines were built and FEW survived without mishaps. They were a terrible mis match for the Ford GT.
  Randy


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: 2112 on June 20, 2014, 08:02:16 AM
   The 255 pushrod engine really lacked the durability needed to go 24 hours. It had a tough time going for four! Around ten engines were built and FEW survived without mishaps. They were a terrible mis match for the Ford GT.
  Randy

From the picture a few posts up, #338, it looks like a Windsor, are they not?


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: acman63 on June 20, 2014, 08:45:20 AM
    The DOHC was actually a fragile engine/ The mains were not torqued to the same value as the crank would bind if they were all @ the same torque. Ford also found that high RPMs and "endurance" racing were not a good match. 3-4 hours of sustained speed was FAR different than 12-24 hours of upshifts and downshifts. I do not remember the DOHC being in a Cobra. They ''may" have tried a pushrod 255 INDY engine but I can't see the DOHC fitting in the Cobra. There are some pictures of one in an early car ( probably 103 as suggested). I have never seen the Weber adaptors.
     Randy

Randy:  P103 was the ken Miles driven  GT40 


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on June 20, 2014, 08:52:14 AM
"We are looking east here. We now see the blast wall on the left and as we saw in our previous post the east assembly hanger now out of frame just to our right. We can now also get a little closer look at all of the different color 66' GT 350's lined up in the background facing south. (Remember all of the red ones we saw in our earlier post). It is interesting to see the GT Mustang on the left and a '66 GT 350 (possibly blue) next to it. By the way, we were able to determine that the R-Model on the right is in fact one from the last group produced - not just because of the 66' side stripes but also it does in fact have a '66 grille." - George

This photo is looking to the left from where the previous photo with the #2 MK II was taken.
P/1046 had orange quick-jack arms at LeMans '66. The arms in the photos here appear to be the same color as the car (they could have been repainted), so it's still unknown if this is actually '1046 or not.
After winning LeMans it was immediately flown back to New York, but did not participate in the country-wide MKII dealer tour that followed. It was returned to Shelby American and used as a transmission test vehicle.
Hopefully the GT40 experts here may know more about the car in these photos.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Shelby_American_display_at_LAX.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: 6R07mi on June 20, 2014, 09:48:44 AM
From the picture a few posts up, #338, it looks like a Windsor, are they not?

A good summary:  http://www.wrljet.com/fordv8/indy.html  yes it was a Windsor 260 aluminum based engine.

regards, jim


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on June 20, 2014, 10:06:26 AM
From the picture a few posts up, #338, it looks like a Windsor, are they not?

       That is the 255ci pushrod INDY engine which was in essence a 5 bolt 260 in aluminum. I am way over simplifying it but it was an 8.2 deck height block not a 351W block or the 9.2 deck XE numbered windsor looking block. The pushrod engine had 8 additional head bolts ( making 6 per cylinder) as gasket failure was a big problem. They went to "Cooper O rings in an effort ot eliminate gasket failures and eventually "dry deck" on the DOHC also using "Cooper rings".
    Randy


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: 2112 on June 20, 2014, 10:31:53 AM
       That is the 255ci pushrod INDY engine which was in essence a 5 bolt 260 in aluminum. I am way over simplifying it but it was an 8.2 deck height block not a 351W block or the 9.2 deck XE numbered windsor looking block. The pushrod engine had 8 additional head bolts ( making 6 per cylinder) as gasket failure was a big problem. They went to "Cooper O rings in an effort ot eliminate gasket failures and eventually "dry deck" on the DOHC also using "Cooper rings".
    Randy

10 - 4

For clarification, by Windsor, I meant Windsor family, not 351. But none the less, you answered my question nicely.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Dmxf on June 21, 2014, 06:53:26 AM
  That IS interesting!!!! The engine on the stand is a 255ci INDY engine with adaptors for Weber carbs. THAT is something I have never seen in all my years of doing this stuff. This was probably for use in one of the MK1 GT40's that tested with that engine. Obviously the INDY cars ran Hilborn injection and methanol.
    randy

Randy - The DOHC engine was first developed using webers (58's), as that was a default initial carryover from the 255ci effort. It was a different configuration from that in the SA photo, but here's a picture:


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on June 21, 2014, 06:44:05 PM
   Mike ,
      I am /was aware of the photo you posted but that puts the carbs too high for the GT-40 and the exhaust would be a nightmare in a GT-40. I was unaware of the adaptors used to put the 58s on  the later "central exhaust" configuration. The "swapped head" sprint car configuration would not work either.
         As much as I know and have had the privelage of seeing with my own eyes, I learn something new every day.
      Randy


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on June 23, 2014, 11:26:37 PM
This BUS STOP photo near the blast wall is one that George & I have been trying to dissect, but in the end we are hoping that someone who was there at the time may be able to help us identify what this feature was. At first, we actually thought it was a photo set up as a joke - we couldn't believe that a 'Bus Stop' would be so far back from Imperial Highway. And at first glance it looked like some sort of opening in the blast wall. But once we started getting our bearings on it, you can clearly see the shadow of this 'door object' and it is far away from the blast wall. A hi-res scan of it shows the bar on the left going all the way to the ground and you can see a brace at the bottom that appears to support it. You can also see this object in the well known aerial view photo of LAX - we have located it as being in front of the center pair of five pairs of 'bleachers' that are attached to the blast wall. The well known opening in the blast wall is just to the left and out of sight in this photo.

This is a nice photo of a 427 street car that is next to (apparently) a Comp Cobra (you can see the roundel on the nose) and you can see an Econoline van on the right.
We also discussed the missing center cap of the rear Sunburst wheel. We have many original photos of Sunbursts and Halibrand SC wheels, both with AND without that rear center cap. We are wondering how they were attached, and if them coming off was a common issue.

We would appreciate any help from the members here as to what this background object with the Bus Stop sign actually was and also about the issue of the missing rear wheel center caps.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/427_street_car_by_the_LAX_blast_wall_bus_stop.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: rkm on June 24, 2014, 03:57:52 AM
I don't think 427s came with rear centre caps.

Kim


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Dan Case on June 24, 2014, 04:20:00 AM
We also discussed the missing center cap of the rear Sunburst wheel. We have many original photos of Sunbursts and Halibrand SC wheels, both with AND without that rear center cap. We are wondering how they were attached, and if them coming off was a common issue.

Most people call them hub plugs. They were machined aluminum. The back of the part has a short section that inserts into the end of the open axle hub. An o-ring in a groove on that section provides inference to hold the plug in the hub.

Dust plugs in the front hubs are a good idea to keep foreign materials out of the front outer axle bearings. AC Cars left a very small diametric clearance between the outer diameter of the bearing holding D-washer and inner diameter of the bore of the hub. That close fit and grease will at least slow down water and grit but the outer bearings were not truly sealed.  (the inner bearings were not either) Plugs in the rear hubs are pure decoration as there are no exposed bearings in there.  New 427 Cobras didn’t always have four plugs.  This subject of factory installation of rear plug comes up occasionally and gets hung up on questions like did presentation cars get dressed up only for advertising images, did some cars get plugs all around just the because people getting a car ready for new car delivery thought they needed them, was there a period of time that the official plan was to use four per car, or any other set of circumstances. We will never know probably.  The best information source for any particular car would be pictures of it as it left for delivery.

What I see in old photos relative to SAI’s use is:
-   Racing Cobras did not usually use front hub plugs (any type), or at least nothing visible.
-   Sometimes some particular team roadsters had red rubber balls pushed into the front hubs of Cobras to be seals.
-   CSX3002 received prototype nearly full flat face machined aluminum front hub plugs during development.
-   A larger plug with a significant taper on the outside was designed for production 427 Cobras.

Dan
 


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on June 24, 2014, 08:18:27 AM
Excellent info - Thanks Dan.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on June 24, 2014, 09:14:45 AM
Here's another display engine at LAX - you can see the DOHC motors' exhaust sticking out behind it.
A hi-res scan of this engine clearly shows N H R A cast into the blow proof bellhousing - it also has chrome Tri-Y's and pulleys and a degreed damper.
I think it's an interesting mix of Webers with the later style '66 solid letter covers.
George notes that the Hertz car has a 013 MFG plate and that the table at right with the MUSTANG banner has parts on it as some sort of display.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Display_engine_at_LAX.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on June 24, 2014, 10:03:36 AM
      This looks like a visual upgrade to the "old" 5 bolt yellow painted engine which used to have a roadster pan and hollow letter valve covers seen in several press photos.
       Randy


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: acman63 on June 24, 2014, 12:29:11 PM
Looks like big brake drum on the table


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Dan Case on June 24, 2014, 03:39:15 PM
      This looks like a visual upgrade to the "old" 5 bolt yellow painted engine which used to have a roadster pan and hollow letter valve covers seen in several press photos.
       Randy

How about early 260 c.i.d. engine block?


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Bob Gaines on June 24, 2014, 06:38:23 PM
The 66 TA coupe is cool .


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Rodney T on June 24, 2014, 09:14:46 PM
  Just putting this out there.  The Sears Automotive center at the River Oaks shopping center in Calumet City had a 289 (yeah well, a small block Ford)  with all that same stuff except it had a single 4BBL carb on it.  This was displayed there for years until a remodeling in the midle 1970s.  I mean it had the Cobra pan, intake, and the valve covers too.
  I really wanted that display.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Gary G (ta22) on June 24, 2014, 10:00:40 PM
agree with Bob Gaines....that coupe is special.  Are there any additional photos of it in the collection?


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on June 24, 2014, 10:57:08 PM
agree with Bob Gaines....that coupe is special.  Are there any additional photos of it in the collection?

Unfortunately no, George doesn't have any other photos of it in his collection.
But I did find this great photo of it by the blast wall at LAX on the 'ol interweb.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Don_Pike_Group_II_Sedan.jpg)



Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on June 24, 2014, 11:26:12 PM
      This looks like a visual upgrade to the "old" 5 bolt yellow painted engine which used to have a roadster pan and hollow letter valve covers seen in several press photos.
       Randy

                                                                I think this display engine at LAX:
(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Display_engine_at_LAX.jpg)

                            Could be the same one that was displayed in the showroom of Hi-Performance Motors on Sepulveda Blvd:
                                                     (http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Display_engine_at_HPM_2.jpg)
Same Webers, same T-shaped oil pan, same valve covers, same chrome headers and pulleys, same degreed damper - even the coil is in the same place and it looks like the same dark bellhousing.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Gary G (ta22) on June 25, 2014, 07:43:48 AM
Thanks, Kieth.  I do have the one you pulled from the internet.  It was included in an article on Don Pike last year in The Shelby American.  Appreciate the response, was hoping the car may have been photographed on a more detailed basis at the press/exec presentation.  Gary


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on June 25, 2014, 08:10:57 AM
       The "yellow engine" ended up at Ray's High Performance in Inglewood Ca and was there as late as '75. It was eventually sold. Ray Wolfe was a principal ( Genreal Manager, Service manager) at High Performance Motors and also worked at SAI. When everything "shut down" Ray bought the parts inventory and opened his own shop near his home. It was a fantastic source for parts until his passingin the 80's. The stuff disappeared after that.
    Randy


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on June 25, 2014, 09:03:01 AM
       The "yellow engine" ended up at Ray's High Performance in Inglewood Ca and was there as late as '75. It was eventually sold. Ray Wolfe was a principal ( Genreal Manager, Service manager) at High Performance Motors and also worked at SAI. When everything "shut down" Ray bought the parts inventory and opened his own shop near his home. It was a fantastic source for parts until his passingin the 80's. The stuff disappeared after that.
    Randy

Randy - Incredible information on the "yellow engine" - Thanks.
Learning facts like that (which are not known by many of us here on the Forum, I'm guessing) make this all worthwhile for me.
 
You have such great responses, knowledge and experience - but it only seems to come out when you see a specific picture or a specific question.
Then you floor us all with what you know about it.

I have always had a thing for the 'unseen photographs' - it seems like you could start your own thread here and share the 'unknown facts'.
You've said you were never a 'shutterbug' and so you don't have photos - but you have knowledge!

You could just post things that you know about Shelby American that you are pretty sure the rest of us don't know.
That's how we started out with George's photos - it was a little scary at first, but look where THAT went! The response has been more than George and I could ever have imagined.

George's photograph of the "yellow engine" at LAX and your knowledge of what became of it is the perfect example - and that's just ONE that has occured here.
 


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on June 25, 2014, 09:34:37 AM
Here's a photo of a narrow-hip 427 at LAX - we believe it to be Mort Sahl driving. There are a couple of better known photos of Mort being driven in this car by Ken Miles, but I think this one is much less known.
This photo looks like a 'chopped off' out-take that probably wasn't selected for much publication. But it's still a great shot of 'out back on any typical day at Shelby American' isn't it?

Mort is pictured in the Registry by the blast wall in CSX3185, which is not a narrow-hip car and does not fall into this chassis# range, so he's just test driving this one here apparently.
CSX3185 was stolen off the street in San Francisco in 1966 and nothing has been heard of it since.


        As a narrow-hip car, my files tell me that the car below could be between CSX3125 and CSX3158:
(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Narrow-hip_427_at_LAX.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on June 25, 2014, 11:21:26 AM
    Thank you!
       My only advantage ( IMHO) was being here and being interested in the cars themselves. My "affair"  with them began when I first saw 5S272 ( and two others) in my local dealers showroom. From then on I was hooked. I ran around all over the LA OC area. Bill Thomas Race cars , Holman Moody Stroppe, SAI and others were only a short drive away for an inquisitive teenager like me. Many doors were opened for me by some of the "pro" racers I hung around with. It was a great time to be growing up in. Tough for "out of towners" to understand and that's why there has been much "assumed" information ( again IMHO).
      Randy


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on June 26, 2014, 08:54:30 AM
Here's the other two photos of Ken Miles giving Mort Sahl a ride in a narrow-hip 427 street car at LAX.
Although most of us have seen these, maybe new members here have not.
The background details alone are worth posting them though.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Ken_Miles___Mort_Sahl_at_LAX.jpg)

This photo shows a good view of the safety wall at the far west edge of LAX - it is perpendicular to the blastwall.
(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Mort_Sahl___Ken_Miles_at_LAX.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: ChicagoChris on June 26, 2014, 01:26:03 PM
Are those 427's in the background on cinder blocks?


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on June 26, 2014, 03:31:39 PM
     No , they were 2x10 copies of cinder blocks.
      Randy


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on June 27, 2014, 09:01:26 AM
Here is CSX2286 at LAX in 1965. After returning from LeMans in June of '65 it was prepped for participation in the Cobra Caravan tour which was in Nov & Dec 1965.
You can see a Ford GT behind it (with possibly what appears to be a 'road test' wheel for recording performance/acceleration, etc.?)
I asked George to nail down the location at LAX of this photo and he sure did. It's in between the two hangars and you're looking at the west end of the East Hangar in this photo.
He also points out the back of the Sales Office (which was between the two hangars) that can be seen on the right of this photo above the back of the GT.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/CSX2286_ready_for_the_Cobra_Caravan.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: 06 GT on June 27, 2014, 10:25:03 PM
(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Don_Pike_Group_II_Sedan.jpg)

I bought the R Model tank out of this car. Had it in my street 66 coupe for a couple years - got rear ended and tank got a little damage. Sold it to a guy that lived in Arcadia.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM6S087 on July 01, 2014, 08:30:09 AM
Is that all the photos? I hope not. I'm really lovin' this thread. Maybe SFM66H just had to take a little break.

Steve


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on July 01, 2014, 10:28:27 AM
No, that's not all of them, but they are winding down some. . .
I'm in the process of getting information from George on a couple of them right now (maybe HE needs a little break too?).

Next will be his personal photos/recollections of Hi-Performance Motors first location on La Brea Avenue.
Then his great date-stamped R-Model pictures should be starting later this week.

He also sent me a couple more 8x10 factory photos in which he has pinpointed the locations at LAX that they were taken - I always find that information fascinating.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Coralsnake on July 01, 2014, 10:43:49 AM
Did I mention, best thread ever?


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on July 01, 2014, 12:38:37 PM
   This is a fantastic thread for sure. These pictures give much insight as to how the operation worked and help to curb long accepted "myths" created in the past by some who never saw the operation in the day. Conversations with former employees still in our area relate "strucutre" to the manufacturing system but also the "shoot from the hip" philosophy when bottle necks arose. These were not UAW employees LOL. These pictures are more like historical doccuments and as we have all seen are often worth thousands of words. THANK YOU !!!
    Randy


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: propayne on July 01, 2014, 02:01:26 PM
Yes, the history is everything (obviously) and we are so lucky that it was documented so well and people like George and organizations like SAAC realized that from the get-go and have preserved and shared so much of it!

Always excited when a new post on this thread pops up!  Chug a Lug

- Phillip


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on July 02, 2014, 12:21:31 AM
Here is George's incredible story of how he acquired the actual 'HI-PERFORMANCE MOTORS' logo that was originally installed on the building at its first location on S. La Brea Avenue, which was just south of Hollywood:


"Many years ago in one of the issues of the ‘Shelby American’, I wrote a article with current pictures of the original Hi-Performance Motors at 1150 S. La Brea. I was very happy with the story in the Club Magazine and don't feel that I really have much more to add (except what happened to the sign) so I am going to tell a very short version of the story.

 It was around 1980 and I worked at Paramount Pictures in Hollywood. At this time I owned a ‘65 GT 350, 5S467. I had been thinking of driving by 1150 S. La Brea to see what, if anything still existed at the former Hi-Performance Motors location. The former location was not that far from the Studio, so at lunch one day, I took a drive and found that the building still existed. As I drove up I was surprised to see that the original Logo was still on the front of the building. I was shocked to say the least! I got out of my car and walked around the building and the small lot next door. I must say that it had seen better days and the area around it was probably a litter nicer in 1965.

I could only dream about the cars and people from Shelby American that at one time had been here. There was a ‘For Sale’ sign attached to the front of the building. I wrote down the number, then left. When I got back to work I called the number and asked about the building and mentioned the Logo. The man said he was the owner and was the one that rented it out to Carroll Shelby in 1965. He also said that the Logo was indeed the original one, and he remembered when it was attached to the building. He also remembered all of the "Cobras and Mustang 350's" that were there at one time. He said that he wanted to demolish the building and sell the property and it had been vacant for a while. I asked if I could buy the Logo and he said that if I could take it down I could have it. I think I offered him $200 and he said fine so I sent him a check. He did tell me that whenever I wanted I could take it. I arranged for a couple of friends to go down with me early on a Sunday morning. I drove down in 5S467 and we took the pictures we see here. I also took a few all around the building.

The Logo was made out of a hard plastic and did break into a few pieces when we took it down but I was able to save everything. We loaded it onto a friends pick up truck and it as delivered to my house at the time. I laid it out in the driveway and as I said everything was there. There were 2 original pieces missing before I took the Logo down and you can see this in the pictures. I figured I would get a couple of new pieces made and attach them to the rest of the originals and I would have a complete Logo. Well unfortunately that never happened. I had stored everything in the back of a couple of large garage cabinets thinking it would be for only a short time and after a while there was a lot of things put in front of the Logo pieces and I kind of forgot about it.

About 4 years later I moved away and had quite a few extra original parts and moved them along with my cars but didn't even think about the Logo. I did remember it later but decided at that time I did not want to go back to the house and get in touch with the current owners. I am sure it was deemed plastic pieces of junk and by then long gone. If this had happened now there is no question I would have taken it. That was almost 30 years ago so who knows what happened to it. By the way the original HPM building at 1150 S. La Brea was never demolished and the original metal frame that held the logo to the building is still up there."

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/5S467_at_first_HPM_location_%281979%29.jpg)



Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: bpoe on July 02, 2014, 05:19:44 AM
Here is the Google street-level pic of the building today...


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on July 02, 2014, 09:30:06 AM
These other two George Watters photos of Hi-Performance Motors are date stamped December 1979.
This first one shows the buildings' orientation to the intersection - you can also get a perspective of the door at the left that goes into a small 'showroom' right along the sidewalk.
And note that this little showroon stops at where the vertical pole is, then the 'wall' takes a 90 degree turn away from us until it meets the wall with the front doors.
The vertical pole can be seen just to the right of the stop sign:
(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/HPM_1_-_1150_S__La_Brea_Ave_%28Dec_1979%29.jpg)


And in this second photo you can clearly see the pole at the intersection of the building lines.
This is an incredible October 1964 photo of Shelby American's second Factory Team Dragonsnake (CSX2357) with Lew Spencer himself (at left) along with Eric Dahlquist of HOT ROD magazine.
It's fantastic to be able to see the original "Carroll Shelby & Lew Spencer's" sign above them in this photo, isn't it?
Scroll back to the first photo and note that the 'General Bottle Supply' wording is in the same panel where the original 'Hi-Performance Motors' wording was.
(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/CSX2357_at_HPM_1_%28October_1964%29.jpg)


And in this last photo, note the space between the HPM logo and the HPM sign panel. You can count 8 of those vertical, corrugated panels between them. Then check that October 1964 photo again and note that you can only see 5 of those panels. That tells us that we are 3 panels away from being able to see the ONLY original photo of the logo that anybody has ever known about! I have read in The Shelby American that if an original photo of it DOES exist, it has not surfaced in the last 50 years. If there would be an uncropped version of the 1964 photo above, say in the Hot Rod archives or something, it would be like finding the Holy Grail. . .
(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/HPM_1_at_1150_S__La_Brea_Ave_%28Dec_1979%29.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on July 02, 2014, 09:39:41 AM
Here is the Google street-level pic of the building today...

Wow - Different, but still recognizable for sure.
Check out the large beveling on the sign panel that is shown well in the lighting of the current photo (you can also see it in the original photos) - incredible that it is unchanged after 50 years!


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: bpoe on July 02, 2014, 05:45:50 PM
Wow - Different, but still recognizable for sure.
Check out the large beveling on the sign panel that is shown well in the lighting of the current photo (you can also see it in the original photos) - incredible that it is unchanged after 50 years!
That makes me wonder if the old sign lies beneath the outer layers. The current photos seems to show a boarded up sign. As if it is covering the old sign which might be covering the older sign.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: 06 GT on July 02, 2014, 06:45:00 PM
Is that a Sunbeam Alpine in the window? Lew Spencer did race one - did they also sell them at HP?


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: bpoe on July 02, 2014, 07:14:56 PM
Modern day pic of the other side of 1150 S. La Brea;


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on July 03, 2014, 12:40:35 AM
bpoe - Thanks for these recent photos of HPM 1, it's good to include them here.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on July 03, 2014, 01:03:57 AM
Since we are talking a lot about the original HI-PERFORMANCE MOTORS, INC. and its logo, George thought it would be a nice idea to include this ad.
About it, he says, "It is by far the best Shelby ad ever."
There's no disagreement with that, and it's nice to see the colors of the logo and the address, phone number etc.
There's some witty use of slogans in there too, and it's interesting to see the name 'MUSTANG GT 350' as used back in the day.

George was kind enough to give me a copy of this magazine, which I did not have - this is a scan of the inside rear cover:   

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Car_Life_Mustang_Guide_%28inside_rear_cover%29.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on July 03, 2014, 07:23:50 AM
     Yes , Lew Spencer was selling sports cars before his association with Shelby and it was at this original location.
   Randy


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: ChicagoChris on July 03, 2014, 07:33:00 AM
Shelby - American has a hyphen in the ad; never seen that before?


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: acman63 on July 03, 2014, 08:12:09 AM
The Shelby American Collection replicated this ad with real parts on its South Wall


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: propayne on July 03, 2014, 09:38:35 AM
Anybody know what the genesis of that logo graphic was? Very abstract.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on July 03, 2014, 10:12:15 AM
   Pete Brock????


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: iamcanadian on July 03, 2014, 10:40:07 AM
Anybody know what the genesis of that logo graphic was? Very abstract.

I always assumed it was designed to look like a jet aircraft, since Shelby's facility was on the airport grounds? Pure guess.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: propayne on July 03, 2014, 10:43:04 AM
^^ yes, I hadn't thought that thru but it stands to reason that Brock would have been tapped to design that logo.

That would be an interesting question to ask him. If it is his design, it is obviously a graphic representation of something - maybe just "movement" or a reference to the jet planes at LAX?


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: propayne on July 03, 2014, 10:44:06 AM
LOL, we posted simultaneously!

A reference to the jets is a good guess  Chug a Lug


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on July 03, 2014, 10:45:53 AM
Anybody know what the genesis of that logo graphic was? Very abstract.

propayne - That's a good question - I've always wondered about that too. It seems to me that it signifies motion or SPEED with that 'trail' behind it. . .

                         (http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/HPM_Logo.jpeg)

But I'm really curious now about the upper right 'legs' of the logo that are always a different color or shade - what could THAT represent?

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/HPM_Magazine_Ad.jpg)

  Pete Brock????

gt350hr - That would be my guess too!



Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Coralsnake on July 03, 2014, 11:26:32 AM
Quote
But I'm really curious now about the upper right 'legs' of the logo that are always a different color or shade - what could THAT represent
?

The second letter....."P". ?


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: GT350CS on July 03, 2014, 11:42:49 AM
Looks like HP to me!


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on July 03, 2014, 11:55:14 AM
    I had the information on pretty good authority, LOL yes , HandP all in one logo.
        Randy

  It helps to have been in the local area during that time period.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: 06 GT on July 03, 2014, 04:28:30 PM
Yes Pete Brock did the HP logo.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM6S087 on July 03, 2014, 10:59:07 PM
propayne - That's a good question - I've always wondered about that too. It seems to me that it signifies motion or SPEED with that 'trail' behind it. . .

                         (http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/HPM_Logo.jpeg)

But I'm really curious now about the upper right 'legs' of the logo that are always a different color or shade - what could THAT represent?

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/HPM_Magazine_Ad.jpg)

gt350hr - That would be my guess too!



In both logos you posted it looks like the lighter color used for the upper right of the “P” represents the canopy on a jet plane or the windshield on a car. And in the second logo, the lighter color that trails off to the left looks like an exhaust trail. At least that’s what I see.

Steve


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Coralsnake on July 04, 2014, 07:58:12 AM
I think thats a tribute to a great design...


(http://www.thecoralsnake.com/HEADERCSU.jpg)

What do you see here?


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on July 04, 2014, 08:33:49 AM
The second letter....."P". ?
                         
coralsnake - Your response gave me the perspective of seeing a "P" - for the FIRST time ever! Well done - Thanks!

                         (http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/HPM_Logo.jpeg)

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/HPM_Magazine_Ad.jpg)

In both logos you posted it looks like the lighter color used for the upper right of the “P” represents the canopy on a jet plane or the windshield on a car. And in the second logo, the lighter color that trails off to the left looks like an exhaust trail. At least that’s what I see.

Steve


Steve - I definitely agree with your vision of seeing a canopy or a windshield there now - for the FIRST time ever!   Chug a Lug


This logo discussion has been really interesting for me. Having other people join in on a topic like this and offer their opinions of what they see, when it's something I've been looking at for a long time and DIDN'T see, is what a Forum is all about.  I really marvel at Pete Brock's vision & imagination to come up with what looks like an H P 'folded back' at speed - very innovative! Thanks to all.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on July 04, 2014, 08:54:12 AM
OK, now we are about to start with George's R-Model photos.
Here are his own words in telling the story of how he acquired them:


"After purchasing 5R528 in 1982 I really wanted to find some original pictures of the car. I knew that the original owner was Bob Acton who purchased it from Shelby American in early 1966. He lived outside of Detroit, Michigan and that is all I knew about him. I had a couple of pictures of him racing against Bill Clawson in 5R002. The pictures were taken at Waterford Hills race track in Michigan. I was able to get a very old telephone number for Bill thru a SAAC member. This was a long shot. I didn't know if he even still had the number but I figured I would give it a try. I called and to my amazement Bill actually answered the phone!! I told him who I was and that I owned Bob Acton's old Shelby GT 350 racecar and asked if he remembered it. He chuckled and said "Do I - I was there the day that the Shelby American truck delivered it to Bob's plumbing business.” He said that they were very close friends and enjoyed racing against each other in their GT 350's.

Bill than proceeded to tell me all about his old car, 5R002. As I remember he was really on top of its history and told of buying it, as is, from Shelby American when they were done racing it. He talked about the different tracks and how he finished. We spoke for at least an hour or more and he was great with a wonderful memory. 

Towards the end of our conversation I told him about how I had purchased 5R528 and was looking for any pictures and any history from its racing days. Bill then said, "You need to talk with Bob and here is his home phone number."  He said that Bob was retired and had owned a large Plumbing business. I thanked Bill for the information and all of his great stories. What a wonderful man.

So now I was really excited and dialed Bob's number. His wife answered the phone and I told her who I was and why I was calling and she said, “I'll get Bob.” Well the next voice I heard was Bob Acton the original owner of my car!! I explained that I had purchased it a few months earlier and that it was going through a restoration. He was excited to hear everything I told him, and than gave me a history of why and how he purchased the car. He did talk of his old friend Bill Clawson and their friendly rivalry. When I asked him if he remembered all of the tracks he raced at he said that he would write me a letter and tell me everywhere he raced and how he finished. He also said that he still had all of the trophies that the car won. I asked if I could buy them and he agreed to for basically the shipping costs. He also said that he had an original invoice that he would send.

When I asked about any pictures he might have, he said that he did not think he still had any but that I should try and find a photographer named Al Bizer who took many pictures at Waterford Hills track during the time Bob raced the car. This was basically the home track for ‘528 and ‘002. A couple of weeks later a box came from Bob with many old trophies, a original invoice and a 5 or 6 page letter telling me about the racing history of my car. I had struck Gold !!!!  Now I needed to find Al Bizer. I figured that since he took many pictures at Waterford Hills track I would give them a call and see if they knew him. I called and got a PR person and proceeded to explain that I was looking for Al Bizer and that had taken many pictures there in the 1960's. The guy says, "He still takes pictures for us and he is our track photographer."
 
I had struck Gold again!! I left my number with the hope that Al would call and he did. I asked if he remembered Bob Acton and Bill Clawson and he said “Yes.” I explained that I was looking for pictures of Bob Acton's car. Al said that he had thousands of pictures and that I needed to send him a picture of the car and also tell him what number Bob used and he would see what he could find. I called Bob Acton up again and asked him to tell me what numbers he used during the Waterford Hills races. I then sent Al one of only 2 pictures I had along with a list of the numbers Bob used. A few weeks later Al called me up and said that he probably had a hundred or so pictures. I was shocked! He said he could also tell me the date each picture was taken. I asked that maybe he pick 50 pictures that he thought were the best ones and I would buy them from him and then we agreed on a price.

I was so excited when they arrived a few weeks later. There were also a few shots of ‘528 and ‘002 together. When I sold 5R528 in 1988 I gave maybe 10 pictures to the person who bought the car. I also gave him all of the Trophies and all of the ORIGINAL paperwork that I got when I bought the car and I mean I had EVERYTHING that you could get and again it was all ORIGINAL. Unfortunately when the car was sold to a couple of subsequent owners EVERYTHING was misplaced and LOST.  I did have a color Xerox of all Original paper work and a few years ago gave it to the current owner. I was told that when he bought the car he got NOTHING at all. Last year I did send the current owner of 5R002 the pictures I had of his car that were taken by Al at Waterford Hills.  So I probably still have 25 original pictures left of 5R528.  They have never been seen before.

 I do wish I still had made copies of all of the ones that I gave away because most are now lost and they were some of the best shots.  Unfortunately Bob Acton, Bill Clawson and Al Bizer are all deceased. I will never be able to thank them enough for their help and so many really great stories."


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: KRANKY on July 04, 2014, 10:29:17 AM
That's a great story.  The Al Bizer collection is still out there and in the hands of Al's sons.  There has been no progress on getting any photos from them lately....I've been trying for the last several years.  They can't decipher the way in which Al had organized the photos and there seems to very little effort put forward to get any progress heading in the right direction.....so when will the collection be available for public viewing....I guess we will all have to keeping sitting on the side lines and patiently wait?

Kranky


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on July 07, 2014, 09:06:38 AM
George's R-Model photos are those of 5R528 as it raced at Waterford Hills, MI when owned by Bob Acton during the years 1966-1968.


"This one looks like Bob is getting the Checkered Flag at Waterford Hills track. You can really see the later version of the front end with the Vertical Brake Ducts. We talked about these in an earlier post when we showed a similar R Model parked at Shelby American. Also note that Bob has added a different exterior mirror. He also changed the side exhaust pipes. You can see they really stick out quite a bit father than the stock ones from the factory.
The car was approximately 5 months old when this picture was taken." - George  

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/5R528_at_Waterford_Hills%2C_MI_%28July_1966%29.jpg)

I also wanted to post an example of the hand-written label that Al put on the back of each photo (this is on the back of the photograph shown above) and it is the earliest of the photos that George sent to me:
(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Photograph_Date_Label_example_%28July_1966%29.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: propayne on July 07, 2014, 02:23:17 PM
Awesome, awesome stuff  Chug a Lug


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: richstang on July 07, 2014, 06:12:55 PM
George's R-Model photos are those of 5R528 as it raced at Waterford Hills, MI when owned by Bob Acton during the years 1966-1968.


"This one looks like Bob is getting the Checkered Flag at Waterford Hills track. You can really see the later version of the front end with the Vertical Brake Ducts. We talked about these in an earlier post when we showed a similar R Model parked at Shelby American. Also note that Bob has added a different exterior mirror. He also changed the side exhaust pipes. You can see they really stick out quite a bit father than the stock ones from the factory.
The car was approximately 5 months old when this picture was taken." - George  

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/5R528_at_Waterford_Hills%2C_MI_%28July_1966%29.jpg)

I also wanted to post an example of the hand-written label that Al put on the back of each photo (this is on the back of the photograph shown above) and it is the earliest of the photos that George sent to me:
(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Photograph_Date_Label_example_%28July_1966%29.jpg)

Great shot! I don't see any battle scars other than a small chip or two in the lower front valance. Was this it's first race?
I did a quick check and I believe this might be the 7-30-66 SCCA Regional (Waterford, MI)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Wood27man on July 07, 2014, 09:27:50 PM
That is a fearsome, gorgeous GT350

Love the helmet.

The Corvettes appear so intimidated by this car they are slinking off the track hoping it won't eat them alive.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: KRANKY on July 07, 2014, 10:34:25 PM
George's R-Model photos are those of 5R528 as it raced at Waterford Hills, MI when owned by Bob Acton during the years 1966-1968.


"This one looks like Bob is getting the Checkered Flag at Waterford Hills track. You can really see the later version of the front end with the Vertical Brake Ducts. We talked about these in an earlier post when we showed a similar R Model parked at Shelby American. Also note that Bob has added a different exterior mirror. He also changed the side exhaust pipes. You can see they really stick out quite a bit father than the stock ones from the factory.
The car was approximately 5 months old when this picture was taken." - George  

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/5R528_at_Waterford_Hills%2C_MI_%28July_1966%29.jpg)

I also wanted to post an example of the hand-written label that Al put on the back of each photo (this is on the back of the photograph shown above) and it is the earliest of the photos that George sent to me:
(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Photograph_Date_Label_example_%28July_1966%29.jpg)

Richstang the event is actually on July 23-24, 1966....the "Midsummer Trophy Races."  Bob won Bp in Saturday's race 3 and Sunday's race 2.

In regards to Al Bizer's notations....the July 1966 date is easy to follow, it's the N-5-20 that is the most confusing part for his son's to interpret.

Kranky


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: richstang on July 08, 2014, 06:38:29 AM
Thank you Kranky!


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: richstang on July 08, 2014, 06:52:27 AM
That is a fearsome, gorgeous GT350

Love the helmet.

The Corvettes appear so intimidated by this car they are slinking off the track hoping it won't eat them alive.

Dig that crazy polka-dot shirt on the flagman!


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: propayne on July 08, 2014, 07:00:36 AM
Dig that crazy polka-dot shirt on the flagman!

Hehe, maybe Wonder Bread was a sponsor?  ;D


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on July 08, 2014, 08:32:19 AM
Great shot! I don't see any battle scars other than a small chip or two in the lower front valance. Was this it's first race?
I did a quick check and I believe this might be the 7-30-66 SCCA Regional (Waterford, MI)

George responds about its first race:

"I do not know when the first race was and as I said at the beginning of the Al Bizer pictures post, I asked Al to send me what he thought were some of the better shots. He said that he had over a hundred so he just picked out approximately 50 or so random ones and that is what I got. I never knew what else he had but I would say that '528 raced before the July date on the back of this picture. A few "battle scars" will show up in some of the future pictures." 


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on July 08, 2014, 09:16:36 AM
Here is the other photo that Al has also dated 'July 1966'. It shows 5R528 in action with the same #187 Corvette that we saw in the background of the previous photo.

George notes: "We can also see a little better in this shot how the side exhaust and the angle it exits seem to be different than stock."
 
This view also shows an early 'battle scar' on its quarter panel.
And Thanks to Kranky, we now know the date of these 2 photos as July 23 & 24, 1966.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/5R528_at_Waterford_Hills%2C_MI_%287-66%29.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: ChicagoChris on July 08, 2014, 10:12:34 AM
Don't know anything about old photos but could the N-5-20 relate to where on the negative this picture is located? 


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: car 26-JD on July 08, 2014, 11:52:52 AM
Don't know anything about old photos but could the N-5-20 relate to where on the negative this picture is located?  

I was thinking along the same lines; N=Negative, 5=roll (or file or folder); 20=exposure # on the roll, each frame is numbered.  Just a thought.

Really great thread thanks again for scanning and posting.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on July 09, 2014, 09:01:10 AM
The next 3 photos of 5R528 are dated MAY 1967 - this is the first of them.

We can see that by this time, it no longer has Le Mans stripes on the front apron.
George adds that they never do return in any of the other photos he has of it thru Sept. 1968, and that Bob Acton did not race the car after 1968.
You can also see a duct tape repair by the brake cooling opening.

The other 2 photos of it coming up with this same date do not show the number '1' that has been temporarily added in this photo.
George notes that when '528 had three numbers on it, so did the other cars it was racing against.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/5R528_at_Waterford_Hills%2C_MI_%28May_1967%29.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: KRANKY on July 09, 2014, 01:50:43 PM
"Spring Sprints".....May 27-28, 1967.

Kranky


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: 06 GT on July 09, 2014, 04:20:16 PM
Don't know anything about old photos but could the N-5-20 relate to where on the negative this picture is located? 

Bet you're right there was probably S-X-XX if it was a color slide or C-X-XX for color negs.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: dicko on July 09, 2014, 07:57:59 PM
Hi Guys,
Assume the numbers went from 174 to 175 for a reason? I get the addition of the '1'.

Great thread and thanks a lot for sharing.

Dicko

#0341


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on July 10, 2014, 08:28:22 AM
Assume the numbers went from 174 to 175 for a reason? I get the addition of the '1'.

We don't have any knowledge about why the numbers changed - and we don't really understand the reason for the addition of the '1' in this case either.
I was wondering if the 'race organizers' assign the cars their numbers (and wether they are to be two or three digits, etc.) or if the car owners did that, or if the type of event that was being held would dictate that.

Kranky here on the Forum may be able to help us understand this aspect of 'numbering' a little bit better...
He seems to have more knowledge of racing in that era than anyone I have ever seen any correspondence from.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on July 10, 2014, 08:52:05 AM
Speaking of that #1, in this second photo dated MAY 1967 you can see that it has been removed.
You can also see here some damage (a crease) in the right rear quarter panel - that crease is also slightly visible in yesterday's photo of it as #175 at the starting line.

Wow - talk about 'racing in our backyard' huh?
For me, this picture really captures how much things were different back in the 1960's!

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/5R528_at_Waterford_Hills%2C_MI_%28May_1967%29_b.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: iamcanadian on July 10, 2014, 09:18:49 AM

Wow - talk about 'racing in our backyard' huh?
For me, this picture really captures how much things were different back in the 1960's!

That is so cool! Looks like they're racing through someone's neighborhood, with the houses in such close proximity to the "track". Love the ambulance lurking in the distance.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on July 10, 2014, 10:25:16 AM
  I think those are the Ghostbusters in the ambulance! LOL    Seriuosly another awesome shot.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Rodster-500 on July 10, 2014, 07:54:44 PM
Speaking of that #1, in this second photo dated MAY 1967 you can see that it has been removed.
You can also see here some damage (a crease) in the right rear quarter panel - that crease is also slightly visible in yesterday's photo of it as #175 at the starting line.

Wow - talk about 'racing in our backyard' huh?
For me, this picture really captures how much things were different back in the 1960's!



Very cool picture.  Chug a Lug

Volunteer ambulance is probably the extent of the emergency crew unless there was a fire truck parked somewhere.  ;)

Yep, things were so different.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on July 11, 2014, 08:34:37 AM
Here is the 3rd photo of 5R528 as #75 at Waterford Hills race track dated MAY 1967.
Kranky adds that this event is the "Spring Sprints" on the 27 & 28 of that month.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/5R528_at_Waterford_Hills%2C_MI_%28May_1967%29_c.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on July 12, 2014, 04:04:12 PM
Check out this fantastic photo of 5R528 at Waterford Hills that is dated AUGUST 1967.

"This is Bob Acton's son and a couple of friends taking a lap with the checkered flag." - George

This is another one of those photos that, for me, captures the exuberance of youth in the 1960's.
An incredible moment in time fortunately captured and shared with all of us here on the Forum.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/5R528_at_Waterford_Hills%2C_MI_%28August_1967%29.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: 427heaven on July 12, 2014, 06:34:48 PM
OOOOH Yeah-Being a teenager,driving your your dads race car,your buds enjoying your moment with you,figuring when dad has had enough you will be next in line to be the family racer! Chug a Lug ;D PeelOut


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: s2ms on July 12, 2014, 07:05:20 PM
Not sure if this has been discussed before about 5R528, and not trying to make trouble (maybe just a little...), but....is that a Cobra T-pan in this photo?


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on July 12, 2014, 11:05:14 PM
Not sure if this has been discussed before about 5R528, and not trying to make trouble (maybe just a little...), but....is that a Cobra T-pan in this photo?

For 'Dave The Trouble Maker' . . .   ;D
 
"In the picture the pan looks wider than the stock Cobra pan that was installed on all of the street cars. Tough to see so it is a guess on my part here. I do think that some of the R Models possibly might have gotten the street pan. If you look at our June 7 post where the Ford Execs. are sitting in the chairs and the cars are lined up we see the R Model, 65 Gt 350 and the 66 Gt 350. All 3 pans seem to look the same to me and if that is the case than this R Model has a street pan. When I owned 528 it had a larger Aviad pan. I don't remember if it was original or not." - George
 
(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/5R528_-_August_1967_-_cropped.jpg)

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Meeting_at_LAX_with_Ford_execs.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: s2ms on July 13, 2014, 01:55:14 PM
Hmm, I don't know much about the Aviad pans so could be wrong about this but....the blowup photo makes it look even more like a T-pan to me, I think the slight angle makes the width hard to determine.

On photos of Aviad pans I have seen on R-models the sump side edges are rounded, not squared off flat like a T-pan, plus there is some space between the relocated oil filter and pan side. In this photo the sump side edges look flat and the oil filter looks like it butts up right next to the pan side, just like the well known photo of an R-model engine on a stand that has a T-pan on it. Lastly, the bottom edges of the pan front surface angle upwards very slightly in this photo, just like they do on a T-pan.

Dave (aka trouble maker)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM6S on July 13, 2014, 02:46:05 PM
I am with the troublemaker on this one...appears to be a cast pan.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on July 13, 2014, 04:45:21 PM
...just like the well known photo of an R-model engine...
Dave (aka trouble maker)

Dave - Would this be the photo?
          If not, could you post the one you're referring to?  Thanks!

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/R-Model_Engine_-__2645_00_%288-1-66%29.jpg)



Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: s2ms on July 13, 2014, 06:38:03 PM
Dave - Would this be the photo?
          If not, could you post the one you're referring to?  Thanks!

Kieth,

No, the one I'm referring to is from the other side and has been published a number of times, there is a low res version in the latest 65-67 Registry on page 224. IIRC there is a better photo in the early SA Guide that Rick wrote, I have a copy around here somewhere...

Dave


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Bob Gaines on July 13, 2014, 07:38:11 PM
From the information I have gathered over the years it seems some R models ran the cast pan some R models ran the long sump Cobra Aviad pan (that one needed crossmember mods) and some ran the made for Mustang shorter sump Aviad pan . The vintage Aviad pans typically had the rounded sides. The Aviad were superior then the cast pans in a couple respects . I don't know why they didn't all run the Aviad pans but they didn't. Maybe Joe Wallace aka Snizzer has some input. Hopefully reading this.   


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on July 14, 2014, 09:14:43 AM
No, the one I'm referring to is from the other side and has been published a number of times, there is a low res version in the latest 65-67 Registry on page 224.
Dave
OK - Thanks for this source Dave - I will look for it there.


After discussion, George and I also agree with Dave that the cropped blow-up photo of 5R528's oil pan sure looks like a cast pan.
And of course there are several period photos that show R engines with them, so we know that they certainly did have them in some cases.

George adds a few notes - "When I bought the car before restoration there was no Cobra pan with it. Everything else was there except the rear plexiglass window (and that will be a future story). I believe the early R's got the Aviad pans and the later R's got the street pans. I would have thought that possibly the last group (5R528's group) would be the cars that got the street pans. The picture you posted of the GT 350 Road Race Engine is from the '66 parts catalog and yes it has the Cobra pan as we can see. Unfortunately we will never know what might have happened to the original pan on 528 and if it was changed at some point. So who knows when the change of pans occurred."

So I decided to 'go after' that (August 1967) cropped blow-up of '528's oil pan again. I experimented with many different settings & techniques to see if I could improve the image to be able to see it better. And I think I found something that did. For the first time I used a setting call 'Equalization' and it resulted in something recognizable. I think you can now see what I do - the long, flat bottom of a cast street pan, I can also see what looks to me like the ribs on both sides - possibly even the letters on the right side of the pan. And it looks lighter (like aluminum) than the surrounding objects.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/5R528_-_August_1967_%28scanner_equalization%29.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Bob Gaines on July 14, 2014, 09:51:51 AM
I have wondered if the cast pans were on the privateer cars and the Aviad pans which were most likely more expensive for SA used on the Team cars . I have heard some of the employees and drivers comment about that there were engine advantages that the team cars had that the privateer didn't get.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on July 14, 2014, 10:18:10 AM
Now we have two photos dated MAY 1968 - here's the first.
We can see that its race number is still the same #741 that it was in August 1967.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/5R528_at_Waterford_Hills%2C_MI_%28May_1968%29.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: acman63 on July 14, 2014, 02:16:54 PM
OK - Thanks for this source Dave - I will look for it there.


After discussion, George and I also agree with Dave that the cropped blow-up photo of 5R528's oil pan sure looks like a cast pan.
And of course there are several period photos that show R engines with them, so we know that they certainly did have them in some cases.

George adds a few notes - "When I bought the car before restoration there was no Cobra pan with it. Everything else was there except the rear plexiglass window (and that will be a future story). I believe the early R's got the Aviad pans and the later R's got the street pans. I would have thought that possibly the last group (5R528's group) would be the cars that got the street pans. The picture you posted of the GT 350 Road Race Engine is from the '66 parts catalog and yes it has the Cobra pan as we can see. Unfortunately we will never know what might have happened to the original pan on 528 and if it was changed at some point. So who knows when the change of pans occurred."

There also is the possibility that some race groups required steel pans so the oil doesnt spew all over the track with contact with a stone . Steep pans dent,  cast pans break.   Ive tried to find where I read that but havent been able to .

So I decided to 'go after' that (August 1967) cropped blow-up of '528's oil pan again. I experimented with many different settings & techniques to see if I could improve the image to be able to see it better. And I think I found something that did. For the first time I used a setting call 'Equalization' and it resulted in something recognizable. I think you can now see what I do - the long, flat bottom of a cast street pan, I can also see what looks to me like the ribs on both sides - possibly even the letters on the right side of the pan. And it looks lighter (like aluminum) than the surrounding objects.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/5R528_-_August_1967_%28scanner_equalization%29.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: richstang on July 14, 2014, 07:20:17 PM
Now we have two photos dated MAY 1968 - here's the first.
We can see that its race number has changed from the 1967 photos - now it's #741.


Thanks for sharing more of these great pictures. The previous photo you posted of 5r528 (dated sometime in August 67) was also #741.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: KRANKY on July 14, 2014, 09:06:39 PM
In regards to adding the 1 in front of the regular number (74) or after....is a tough question.  Waterford Hills had there own sports car racing club that scored points for each of their races and there was most likely someone all ready in the club that had laid claim to that particular number (74) in the club events.  Wasn't Bob's regular number 74 for all of the other events that he participated in (Elkhart Lake, etc.)(at least 80% of the ones that he entered)?  Waterford Hills isn't the only racing venue that racers added numbers to the regular numbers (Laguna Seca, etc., etc.).

Kranky  


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: johndoe on July 14, 2014, 09:53:44 PM
George has some good details about this one.
It's from the Shelby American Open House in June '65, but it looks (at least to me) like a photo that was not circulated much.
It shows 5R001 in back of the Eastern hangar with Jerry Titus affixing its hood pins, and upon magnification it looks like Lew Spencer directly behind Jerry with the white roll in his pocket.
Of interest is that the guy in the white shirt with the beard that was riding with Lew Spencer & CSX2431 in a previous post is seen again in this photo.
It also shows the rear wheel arch modification on 5R001 as well.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/5R001_at_Shelby_American_Open_House.jpg)

Does anyone know what exact day this Open House took place in June '65?

Thank you.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on July 14, 2014, 10:48:18 PM
acman63 has a good point to add (it was buried inside Reply #438) so I copied it & posted it here by itself:

There also is the possibility that some race groups required steel pans so the oil doesnt spew all over the track with contact with a stone. Steep pans dent, cast pans break. Ive tried to find where I read that but havent been able to.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on July 14, 2014, 10:55:23 PM
Thanks for sharing more of these great pictures. The previous photo you posted of 5r528 (dated sometime in August 67) was also #741.

richstang - Good eye, you are correct. Thanks for pointing it out - I'll go back & correct that post.
                                                     Chug a Lug


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on July 15, 2014, 12:20:54 AM
Does anyone know what exact day this Open House took place in June '65?

Thank you.
(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/5R001_at_Shelby_American_Open_House.jpg)

John - I went back into this thread to find this answer from richstang in reply #82:
"I've just read that open house was from June 6-8th. The 6th was Shelby employees & families, 7th was Ford reps, and the 8th was for the press."
Info found on; http://1965gt350mustang.com/history.html


Also, in my files I have a couple of captioned photographs from SAAC publications that say two different things:
1. Showing the R-Model in the photo above, the caption reads "Things were in full swing by June 3rd when Shelby American hosted an Open House for the press."
2. The other mention of June 3rd is a photo of Leo Beebe, Carroll Shelby and Ray Geddes with the caption "Beebe attended the official opening of Shelby American's Airport Facility on June 3rd."

So, the dates from 1965gt350mustang.com sound more specific, but I thought I would mention the June 3rd date also because it was in the captions of photos in SAAC publications.

But because of discussions with George about when this many men are wearing suits, I think it's pretty safe to say that the R-Model photo was taken on June 7th - Ford Reps Day.
I can go back & edit this post if others know more about the actual date.  



Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on July 15, 2014, 01:18:11 AM
This comment from a New Guy yesterday really cracked me up - I had to re-post it here:

"The George Watters thread is hypnotic."


(Quote from: Maxjets on Yesterday at 07:14:12 AM)

 




Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on July 15, 2014, 02:30:23 AM
In regards to adding the 1 in front of the regular number (74) or after....is a tough question.  Waterford Hills had there own sports car racing club that scored points for each of their races and there was most likely someone all ready in the club that had laid claim to that particular number (74) in the club events.  Wasn't Bob's regular number 74 for all of the other events that he participated in (Elkhart Lake, etc.)(at least 80% of the ones that he entered)?  Waterford Hills isn't the only racing venue that racers added numbers to the regular numbers (Laguna Seca, etc., etc.).

Kranky  

Well, George has 'shaken the bushes' & rounded up 8 more photos of 5R528 - that makes a total of 16.
The first 8 are being posted in this series, the other 8 I haven't scanned yet.
But I've counted eight different race numbers that it has used, and #74 (or a variation of it) is used in five of the eight numbers.
They are: 54 - 74 - 75 - 174 - 175 - 274 - 741 & 744.
To my knowledge, all were taken at Waterford Hills, with the exception of one that hasn't been posted yet - it was taken at Grattan Int'l Raceway, MI.
Right now I don't have knowledge of other numbers it may have used at other tracks, but George adds this:

"By the way, I have a list from Bob that he had given me that tells every track that he raced at and his best finishes. Top speed was 161 at Mosport Canada."


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: KRANKY on July 15, 2014, 10:57:32 AM
Well, there you go, it looks like the "1" theory is quickly plummenting down the charts for the initial 80% guess....honestly, I would have to say that the local club racers had dibs on the regular number for their events and the visiting racers were given what ever was available at the time and that may have even changed if there were a few no shows.

Kranky


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: richstang on July 15, 2014, 08:34:39 PM
(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/5R001_at_Shelby_American_Open_House.jpg)

John - I went back into this thread to find this answer from richstang in reply #82:
"I've just read that open house was from June 6-8th. The 6th was Shelby employees & families, 7th was Ford reps, and the 8th was for the press."
Info found on; http://1965gt350mustang.com/history.html


Also, in my files I have a couple of captioned photographs from SAAC publications that say two different things:
1. Showing the R-Model in the photo above, the caption reads "Things were in full swing by June 3rd when Shelby American hosted an Open House for the press."
2. The other mention of June 3rd is a photo of Leo Beebe, Carroll Shelby and Ray Geddes with the caption "Beebe attended the official opening of Shelby American's Airport Facility on June 3rd."

So, the dates from 1965gt350mustang.com sound more specific, but I thought I would mention the June 3rd date also because it was in the captions of photos in SAAC publications.

But because of discussions with George about when this many men are wearing suits, I think it's pretty safe to say that the R-Model photo was taken on June 7th - Ford Reps Day.
I can go back & edit this post if others know more about the actual date.  

Looking at the 1965 Calendar for June the 6 was a Sunday. That makes sense for a Family day tour. While Monday and Tuesday (7th & 8th) would work for the work week Press and Ford day tours. I recall some additional tour day photos (family day included) posted in the Henry Ford Photo archives on Flickr.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: camp upshur on July 16, 2014, 01:54:06 AM


What I find fascinating is that LeMans 1965 was the next week. It was a maximum effort which included:
 
-experimental MK ll (427) Ford GTs in their first outing I believe;
-MK l's running under the SAI banner and prepped and provided for at least two international crews  (running both 289 and 325 experimental engines);
-a full 5 car Cobra Coupe mass entry, as I recall.
 
A tremendous engineering, logistical and administrative effort involving many simultaneous efforts and, needless to say, under the stressful expectations of 'Hank the Duece' who was waging a one man ego war on Enzo Ferrari (which made most of all of this possible).
 
To think they could find the time to field day, square the shop away, and stow all their gear for a 3 day 'Dog and Pony Show' with so many deadlines and untested programs being put to the fire at once the following week is really an act of composure!


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on July 16, 2014, 09:09:10 AM
Here is the second photo of 5R528 at Waterford Hills that is date stamped MAY 1968. The is the last of the 8 photos in this first series. The second series of 8 photos is in the works and George says there are no more Al Bizer photos after the second series.

You can see that now '528's race number has had its '1' made into a '4'. A couple of other things that may grab your attention as well: Both cars' brake lights are working and Bob is driving in the rain with the side window down!
But that rear window! What was up with that? That was a rare sight (for me) on an R-Model and I had to know the story on it - here's what George had to say:

"In the picture we have posted today, which was taken in 1968, we see that '528 has a full Mustang rear glass window instead of the factory plexiglass one that came with the car. 
When I purchased it in 1981 before it received a restoration, it still had this rear window on it. This was many months before I had any of the Al Bizer pictures. I wondered what had happened to the original plexi window. The car was very complete except for this. I purchased a good reproduction rear plexi window and that is what was installed during the restoration.

During one of my conversations with original owner Bob Acton, I asked him many questions and I happened to mention that sometime after he had sold '528, one of the subsequent owners had lost the rear window. He said, "No they didn't, I have it in my garage." I was very surprised to hear this and asked him why he took it off. He said that the SCCA rules had changed and he had to use a full glass window so he switched it out and it has been in his garage ever since. (One of the experts might want to clarify this rule change - Thanks). I told him that I would like to buy it from him and he basically said he would be happy to build a wood crate for it if I would pay for materials and shipping. He did say that it would take him a couple of months at least to send it.

The reproduction plexi window was now on '528 and I figured when the original came I would just keep it as a spare. So 2 or 3 months later, the original one came, and it was in great shape so I just kept it my garage. A year or so later a guy that had done me some favors had purchased an early '65 GT 350 and was restoring it to R Model specs. He asked if he could buy the original plexi window from '528 as he knew it was in my garage. I knew that I was not going to put it back on '528 and I did sell it to him. So there is a street '65 GT 350 out there that looks like a R Model and it even has a real R Model plexiglass rear window!!!!!!     

 ………..  yes I do know what number the car is !!!!                                                                                                                   

Best, George"

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/5R528_in_the_rain_at_Waterford_Hills_%285-68%29.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on July 16, 2014, 09:35:45 AM

What I find fascinating is that LeMans 1965 was the next week. It was a maximum effort which included:
 
-experimental MK ll (427) Ford GTs in their first outing I believe;
-MK l's running under the SAI banner and prepped and provided for at least two international crews  (running both 289 and 325 experimental engines);
-a full 5 car Cobra Coupe mass entry, as I recall.
 
A tremendous engineering, logistical and administrative effort involving many simultaneous efforts and, needless to say, under the stressful expectations of 'Hank the Duece' who was waging a one man ego war on Enzo Ferrari (which made most of all of this possible).
 
To think they could find the time to field day, square the shop away, and stow all their gear for a 3 day 'Dog and Pony Show' with so many deadlines and untested programs being put to the fire at once the following week is really an act of composure!

camp upshur - You have posted a very well written response here, and I totally agree with you.
                    The amazing sequence of events that was organized in this time frame has occured to me too, but I have never taken the time to write anything & post it.
                    I'm glad someone did -Thanks!   Chug a Lug



Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: 5S003 on July 16, 2014, 05:33:42 PM
Yes , as usual , George is correct.  There was an SCCA rule change in 1967? in which the factory R model rear window could not be used, for this reason when you see pictures of R528 and R002 racing at Waterford Hills, both GT350's had their traditional Mustang glass rear windows reinstalled. R002 ran with its rear glass from that point on into the time it was racing in Mexico.
I had a thought the other day, I am going to contact Chuck Cantwell tonight and see if he can get on this forum, this "thread" is pretty neat, but what could be better than hearing a few thoughts from Chuck himself once in a while?  As we all know, I also enjoy hearing the title of "father of the GT350" is actually sticking to his name now. 
Keep up the photos and the comments.   pcorn     


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: TransAmEd on July 16, 2014, 10:36:19 PM
Speaking about Bob Acton, is there any chance of a June/July 1964 (maybe even earlier?) picture from Waterford Hills of his first racing (rallye) Mustang notchback in the collection?
It looks like that Bob was the first one to ever race or rallye a Mustang notchback in a public sanctioned US race, despite that the official homologation was not passed in the first attempt by Ford. Just out of curiosity.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on July 17, 2014, 09:19:50 AM
Yes , as usual , George is correct.  There was an SCCA rule change in 1967? in which the factory R model rear window could not be used, for this reason when you see pictures of R528 and R002 racing at Waterford Hills, both GT350's had their traditional Mustang glass rear windows reinstalled.

Since Mark mentioned 5R528 and 5R002 racing at Waterford Hills, we thought this would be a perfect place to add this great photo of just that.
This is the front and back of the rare Waterford Hills R-Model postcard. The front shows Bill Clawson in 5R002 leading Bob Acton in 5R528 - the back shows the Racing Dates for 1968.
I only learned that this existed 2 days ago myself & we figured that most members didn't know it existed either and would enjoy seeing it.
I would love to have the actual postcard to scan & post here, but all George has now is these small thumbnail images. He had 3 or 4 of the postcards but didn't keep any.
He said they were mailed/given out in late 1967 and early 1968 and that they were the small standard size postcards that you would send thru the US Mail back then.

If anyone has one that they would temporarily share for a scan, it sure would make a great addition to the Shelby American History thread here on the Forum.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/The_R-Models_at_Waterford_Hills_postcard.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on July 17, 2014, 09:32:05 AM
I had a thought the other day, I am going to contact Chuck Cantwell tonight and see if he can get on this forum, this "thread" is pretty neat, but what could be better than hearing a few thoughts from Chuck himself once in a while?  As we all know, I also enjoy hearing the title of "father of the GT350" is actually sticking to his name now. 

Mark - That's a fantastic idea! I think Chuck would enjoy what he sees here and we ALL sure would enjoy anything he would care to add.

                         


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on July 17, 2014, 09:49:18 AM
Speaking about Bob Acton, is there any chance of a June/July 1964 (maybe even earlier?) picture from Waterford Hills of his first racing (rallye) Mustang notchback in the collection?
It looks like that Bob was the first one to ever race or rallye a Mustang notchback in a public sanctioned US race, despite that the official homologation was not passed in the first attempt by Ford. Just out of curiosity.

TransAmEd - George has one photo of a Mustang notchback that I haven't posted yet, but I have emailed him for more info about it - and it will be posted here.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: 5S003 on July 17, 2014, 10:25:59 AM
I have one of those postcards, if you need one to scan here


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on July 18, 2014, 12:32:19 AM
I have one of those postcards, if you need one to scan here

Mark - I (we) Thank you for this generous offer! I'll PM you with my email address to see about the arrangement.

Kieth


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on July 18, 2014, 08:32:05 AM
Here's that photo of the Notchback that I was talking about. George doesn't know anything about it, so we are reaching out to Members here for anything they may be able to help us with.
I like this photo and of course the HI-PERFORMANCE MOTORS lettering on the fender - that also may be why George had it in his collection! I notice that this is one of the few instances where the HPM lettering doesn't end with 'INC.' as it did when the Factory Team Car(s) had the Dealership lettering on them.

All I've got on this one is that the 'AS' on the door means the Class it's racing in, 'A SEDAN' (?) and that the four high concrete block wall looks like Riverside to me.
And it seems like I should know who the guy with the glasses in the white driver's suit behind the car is, but I don't.
Torq-Thrust wheels make ANY body style of Mustang look tough, don't they?
Looking forward to more information on this car, the sponsorship, the year, the driver, the location - everything.

TransAmEd - This likely isn't the Notchback of Bob Acton that you were asking about - and you or Kranky are probably the ones who can help us the most with this photo.
George said he remembers Bob talking about his Notchback but doesn't have any details except that he said he raced one before he ordered 5R528.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Notchback_sponsored_by_HPM.jpg)

I told you I liked the photo above - here is one that I've had of it for 10 yeras - it was printed in HOT ROD Magazine in 2004.
Imagine my surprise when I discovered it is the exact same car that George had a photo of in his own collection.
Notice the COBRA trailer in the background - I've seen a closeup of it at Riverside loaded up with new '65 GT 350's.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Torq-Thrust_Photo_%28Hot_Rod_-_Nov_2004%29.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: richstang on July 18, 2014, 08:47:24 AM
I believe that is the #9 driven by Ray Wolff (painted red). So far, I have his car listed as;
 
-Feb 27, 1966 at Phoenix SCCA National; 5th oa, 1st class
-April 3,1966 at Tucson SCCA National; DNF engine
-May 8, 1966 at Laguna Seca USRRC / SCCA (no fog lights or grille bar; REVS photo)
-Sept 10-11, 1966 at Vaca Valley "Vacaville" SCCA Regional & Divisional  (no fog lights or grille bar; REVS photo)

Keep in mind the info from the REVS digital Library (Stanford) is often off. For instance, the photos on their site noted from Laguna Seca May 8, 1966 may actually be Riverside since it shows the white painted tires half buried in the turns.

https://revslib.stanford.edu/catalog/vg972qx3061


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: richstang on July 18, 2014, 09:09:23 AM
Here's the vaca valley photo link for the #9 notch

https://revslib.stanford.edu/catalog/kj233sz6999


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on July 18, 2014, 09:44:10 AM
     Driven by Don Pike. Ray Wolfe was the GM for HP motors as well as working at SAI. He could have been listed as the owner. Good running car ( factory supported) LOL  Yes pictures are Riverside , up against the inside wall of the short front straightaway.
       Randy


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Gary G (ta22) on July 18, 2014, 09:55:44 AM
Randy, I'm going have to agree with richstang.........I think this is Ray Wolf.........I have photos of him driving other Mustangs with the number 9.  If you enlarge the photos from Rev, the name looks like Ray Wolf at Vaca Valley.  Don ran with number 69.  Gary


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Gary G (ta22) on July 18, 2014, 09:57:51 AM
....also, the driver in all the photos is wearing eye glasses.....Don Pike didn't wear glasses.............


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on July 18, 2014, 11:06:38 AM
    My mistake! clearly I am not infallable! That is Ray in the 1st photo with the glasses and driving suit. I had forgotten he had this car. My apologies. I should have known. The Don Pike car was blue as I recall. ( could be wrong again LOL)
       Randy


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Gary G (ta22) on July 18, 2014, 11:50:16 AM
............these photos are fabulous and nothing if not an education for us ALL...............


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: 6R07mi on July 18, 2014, 01:17:41 PM
Speaking about Bob Acton, is there any chance of a June/July 1964 (maybe even earlier?) picture from Waterford Hills of his first racing (rallye) Mustang notchback in the collection?
It looks like that Bob was the first one to ever race or rallye a Mustang notchback in a public sanctioned US race, despite that the official homologation was not passed in the first attempt by Ford. Just out of curiosity.

TransAm Ed, you beat me in posting this thought! I was thinking the same question!


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: TransAmEd on July 18, 2014, 10:36:37 PM
The Bob Acton notchback was a #74 lettered Mustang. This pic is out of a 18/19th. July 64 race program, so it was probably pictured earlier in a June race to appear in that program. Anything else around this Bob Acton notchback would be interesting, but of course should not steer away from the main topic.

(http://www.ponysite.de/7-1964bobacton_mikematune.jpg)

I pull this out of Mike Matunes research  (with Krankys archives contribution) on the first racing Mustangs worldwide earlier this year for a web article that was announced to be published, but isn't yet as far as I know. Maybe the comments from George and others will help that research as well.
BTW there were a number of earlier racing appearance of Mustangs in rallyes, so the definition of the "first in what sort of public race" will be the topic of Mike Matunes article.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: TransAmEd on July 18, 2014, 10:58:38 PM
Ray Wolfe's #9 Mustang is one of the two former notchback suspension Shelby test vehicles, so it would be interesting to trace down the #9 car after 1966.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: 67-1690 on July 19, 2014, 05:21:25 AM
Members who own 1967 Shelbys have been clamoring for more photos after that close up of Carroll with all the '67's in the background at LAX, but this is the only other one George has.
It's still a fascinating view of the production line in the east hangar at LAX though.
Here we can see #0231, a GT500 that was completed on 1/3/67 and shipped on 1/1/67 to Eger Motors, Inc. of McKeesport, PA - and that it originally had Magstars.
I always thought how cool it would be to own a car that was in such a famous photo as this.

George notes that only the second car has side stripes so far. Many things about how the production sequence worked here would be interesting to know.
Also of interest to me is that the photographer seems to have focused on the second car rather than the first, the side stripes are razor sharp in the photo, but not the front of 0231.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/The_1967_production_line_at_LAX_%28%230231_in_front%29.jpg)

I am not sure if anyone mentioned this, but it blows my mind that they have the rear fold-down sitting on the roof of each car.  Brand new cars...that's a lot of weight and hardware.

Also, this is car 231 upfront, as we know.  Does this car have upper scoop lights?  I was just curious as to when they stopped using the large-lettered Speedways and switched to the small-lettered.  This may have been mentioned before so I apologize if I am repeating something already covered.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Bob Gaines on July 19, 2014, 07:43:31 AM
I am not sure if anyone mentioned this, but it blows my mind that they have the rear fold-down sitting on the roof of each car.  Brand new cars...that's a lot of weight and hardware.

Also, this is car 231 upfront, as we know.  Does this car have upper scoop lights?  I was just curious as to when they stopped using the large-lettered Speedways and switched to the small-lettered.  This may have been mentioned before so I apologize if I am repeating something already covered.
Approximately #280 on the tire transition.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on July 19, 2014, 10:34:04 AM
I don’t always know if I’m posting things here that many of you have already seen, I just post them because I haven’t seen them before. That way, I feel that they’ll just always be here for those of you who may not have seen them.

So, when George sent me 3 copies of ‘FORD TIMES’ (1965-1967) I scanned them for my files because I had never seen them before. Originally I hadn’t even intended to post them because I guessed that everyone (but me) had seen them. But the more I kept looking at them the more I kept noticing how good they were. By that, I mean they are so good because they were written back when they were introducing the new, exciting cars from Shelby American, not written with today’s perspective of history. For me, that makes them worthy of being in a Shelby American History thread. Plus, there are a couple of great photos in there that I had never seen before and by now you know how much I like those!

But a couple of other things that George sent me will be things I’m pretty darn sure many of you haven’t seen. Some of those are: photocopies of the Original Factory Invoice for 5R528, THE ORIGINAL ENVELOPE IT CAME IN, a handwritten note/photo from Carroll Shelby to Bob Acton dated 8 days prior to the date on the 1966 Invoice, 8 more photos of 5R528 in action (4 of them are outstanding, most of all the one where it’s got a good lift under the front tire while racing in the rain!) a photo of the trophies that 5R528 won, a 5x7 card of 5R528 at Grattan with a hand written caption and another color photo of CSX2431 in L R E livery at Riverside.

So we’ll post all these in no particular order, just thought I’d give you an outline of things to come on GWC.  



Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: 2112 on July 19, 2014, 10:58:40 AM
Approximately #280 on the tire transition.

Because the tires disappeared from Goodyear?


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: KRANKY on July 19, 2014, 07:17:39 PM
The Bob Acton notchback was a #74 lettered Mustang. This pic is out of a 18/19th. July 64 race program, so it was probably pictured earlier in a June race to appear in that program. Anything else around this Bob Acton notchback would be interesting, but of course should not steer away from the main topic.

(http://www.ponysite.de/7-1964bobacton_mikematune.jpg)

I pull this out of Mike Matunes research  (with Krankys archives contribution) on the first racing Mustangs worldwide earlier this year for a web article that was announced to be published, but isn't yet as far as I know. Maybe the comments from George and others will help that research as well.
BTW there were a number of earlier racing appearance of Mustangs in rallyes, so the definition of the "first in what sort of public race" will be the topic of Mike Matunes article.

Wolfgang....in looking at the results again for Bob Acton's Mustang....he attended and won his class III at the Spring Sprints in May 1964....your attached photo should also be from the same event since many of the same cars in the Waterford Club Magazine are listed in the results for the Spring Sprints.  (Al Bizer photos)

Kranky


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: TransAmEd on July 20, 2014, 08:46:13 AM
Thank you, Erik, just to add to the timeline here is the Ford letter (dated June 25th, 1964) for the second homologation attempt that I got from Alan Mann.
The first one failed, so Ford could not enter them earlier in FIA sanctioned races.

(http://www.ponysite.de/Fordletter_June64we.jpg)
The FIA also rejected an earlier letter of confirmation, because it was not signed by a higher rank in their opinion. Funny enough the same people (Merwin and Passino) then signed as "directors" and the letter was accepted.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on July 21, 2014, 09:48:36 AM
Here's one of those great photos in the FORD TIMES that I was talking about - this is page 15 of the July 1965 issue and it shows 5R002 at Riverside.
What really caught my eye was the rarity of a color R-Model photo - this one shows '002 when it had a rear bumper and its' distinctively light colored wheels (brand new?) at this stage of its' career.
I must say the 'lake' at Riverside was new to me, I hadn't seen or read much about that, but it sure is shown well in this photo.
The white Cobra reminds me of the one that Ken Miles skidded around a corner with when following 5R002 in those black & white Shelby American videos.
You can also see a Daytona Coupe and what appears to be a Ford GT ahead of them.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/5R002_at_Riverside_Raceway.jpg)


I'm posting the next photo in a new format, I hope it works out as planned. It will appear about 6x9 on the Forum but if you choose to save the photo it should open up bigger to be able to read.
It's the page 14-15 spread in the same issue that the above photo came from:

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/pgs_14-15.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on July 21, 2014, 10:18:24 AM
OK - a recap of the info I've learned from the members here about this photo of George's:

That the guy with the glasses in the driver's suit is Ray Wolff, who was the General Manager of Hi-Performance Motors.
He's with his #9 red Notchback at Riverside - it was a 'factory supported' car but not one of the 16 Factory Cars built in 1966, correct?
I've skimmed the Registry for the names associated with those 16 cars and didn't see his (unless I missed it).

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Notchback_sponsored_by_HPM.jpg)

AND that his last name is spelled with two F's:

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Ray_Wolff_-_General_Manager_at_HPM_2.JPG)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: 6s341 on July 21, 2014, 02:24:45 PM
Just wanted to say I've been catching up on this great thread, and wanted to thank all involved for the contribution...the pix and commentary are priceless!   Chug a Lug


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: TransAmEd on July 21, 2014, 03:36:13 PM
It is reported that Chuck Cantwell and Ray Wolff used one of the 2 hulks that were used for the early Shelby suspension tests for this 1966 race adventure with that car.
Mark mentions Chuck Cantwells memories about this notchback racer on his website: http://1965gt350mustang.com/history.html

Which would however mean it was in the SA warehouse for a longer period or should be visible in some pictures. Any pic around from the "warehouse"?


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: richstang on July 21, 2014, 07:32:50 PM
Here's one of those great photos in the FORD TIMES that I was talking about - this is page 15 of the July 1965 issue and it shows 5R002 at Riverside.
What really caught my eye was the rarity of a color R-Model photo - this one shows '002 when it had a rear bumper and its' distinctively light colored wheels (brand new?) at this stage of its' career.
I must say the 'lake' at Riverside was new to me, I hadn't seen or read much about that, but it sure is shown well in this photo.
The white Cobra reminds me of the one that Ken Miles skidded around a corner with when following 5R002 in those black & white Shelby American videos.
You can also see a Daytona Coupe and what appears to be a Ford GT ahead of them.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/5R002_at_Riverside_Raceway.jpg)

Thanks for posting this. I hadn't seen this photo before.
 Chug a Lug
I assume this is the 1/27/65 GT350 introduction at Riverside. It looks like the white cobra is into a bit of a power slide and the R-model is really close to it's left quarter panel.
 :o
I guess this a what they would call an aggressive demonstration?
 PeelOut


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on July 21, 2014, 11:32:05 PM
Thanks for posting this. I hadn't seen this photo before.

richstang - I thought I would be the only one who hadn't seen it.
That would make a fantastic scan if it was a high quality photograph.
The Ford Times issues are of low-res visual quality but 'hi-res' content quality!

Wait 'till you see the May 1967 issue (if you haven't already).


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on July 22, 2014, 07:32:10 AM
      The "lake" was a low spot between turns 1 and 2 that collected rain water. The track ran down hill from turn 6 at the top to turn 9 at the bottom. There was often a water accumulation "lake" in the middle of turn 9 as well. More than one driver visited them LOL.
     Randy


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on July 22, 2014, 08:52:09 AM
Randy - I was going to ask you for your comments on the 'lake' at Riverside if you hadn't done so on your own.
Having our Resident Riverside Expert here has come in handy so many times on the GWC thread and I have learned much from you.

We have another Riverside photo of CSX2431 in L R E livery that I'm anxious to get your location ID on - Thanks again!

Kieth


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on July 22, 2014, 09:16:29 AM
Here's pgs 16-17 in the July 1965 issue of FORD TIMES.
Note: "Mustang seats, some of the best ever designed, are included in the street version. Their support for back and legs is excellent, and they have a good amount of side grip during cornering."

After almost 50 years, we all still agree with that.  Right?

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/pgs_16-17.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: richstang on July 22, 2014, 06:49:32 PM
richstang - I thought I would be the only one who hadn't seen it.
That would make a fantastic scan if it was a high quality photograph.
The Ford Times issues are of low-res visual quality but 'hi-res' content quality!

Wait 'till you see the May 1967 issue (if you haven't already).

You're not the only one. All of this is well before my time.

 pcorn


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: 5S003 on July 22, 2014, 09:23:04 PM
In respect to The Ford Times photo, some of these cars used in this photo shoot were also used in the "Shelby Goes Racing With Ford" movie . There was a short priod of time when 5R002 had white, light colored, spokes for the rear rims, the fronts were still natural Magnesium . Upon researching the chronological layout of the time R002 was running under Shelby American, Brock was asked about the session at Riverside, he mentioned it had rained a lot the week before and all the water in one section of the track went to the lowest area which resulted in the "lake" . I think Brock was driving R002 in this photo as we have another side shot of the same session and Brock is driving 002 with a white windbreaker on.
As for Cantwell and Pike's coupe they did take one of the notchback hipo coupes initially used for the GT350 suspension development and turned it into a Group II notchback race car. Cantwell drove it once, it I remember to a first place win at Riverside, he is unsure of what happened to the car after Pike was finished with it.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: TransAmEd on July 22, 2014, 10:06:47 PM
Mark, Cantwell and Wolff raced that one with door number #9;)

Pike built his own car with his brother Gary, which Don Pike and Cantwell confirmed last year.
http://www.ponysite.de/66_group2_donpike.htm


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on July 22, 2014, 11:03:44 PM
Upon the passing of James Garner, George mentioned to me a story regarding him.
I thought it would be nice to share it - I posted it in 'The Lounge' Board & the 'RIP James Garner' thread.
Don't miss it.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on July 23, 2014, 12:10:36 AM
Upon researching the chronological layout of the time R002 was running under Shelby American, Brock was asked about the session at Riverside, he mentioned it had rained a lot the week before and all the water in one section of the track went to the lowest area which resulted in the "lake" . I think Brock was driving R002 in this photo as we have another side shot of the same session and Brock is driving 002 with a white windbreaker on.
Thanks very much for the additional information you have shared here - it's fantastic to learn that Pete Brock is likely driving the car in that photo!
And the specifics from him about how the 'lake' was created during the time frame that the photo was taken is incredible.
I had read here on the Forum that Riverside was described as 'semi-arid' - when I first saw that photo I just couldn't believe it - I had never heard of 'the lake' prior to seeing it!


There was a short priod of time when 5R002 had white, light colored, spokes for the rear rims, the fronts were still natural Magnesium.
Here's a nice view of 5R002's light colored rear wheels compared to its natural magnesium fronts. It's a fantastic photo that I heavily cropped on purpose, I don't know if you've seen it before or not (there's a story...)

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/5R002_at_Riverside_Raceway_-_Jan_27%2C_1965.jpg)

And they are also shown very well in these photos from SPEED & CUSTOM Magazine:
(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/5R002_at_Riverside_%28Speed___Custom_Magazine%29.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: 6S2020 on July 23, 2014, 02:15:44 AM
Thanks for posting this. I hadn't seen this photo before.
 Chug a Lug
I assume this is the 1/27/65 GT350 introduction at Riverside. It looks like the white cobra is into a bit of a power slide and the R-model is really close to it's left quarter panel.
 :o
I guess this a what they would call an aggressive demonstration?
 PeelOut
By the position of their hands on the wheel and the load on the front, i suspect a healthy dose of under steer is going on :o


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on July 23, 2014, 07:36:01 AM
    Turn two was a pretty fast right hander after a much slower turn one and the carsin the photo  look to be taking  the "set" into two. A shot deeper into the corner would show "neutral" steering wheel position. The exit of two was tricky and sent MANY a race car off track. A good friend rolled a '65 350 after going off track in two.. Yes the car still survives.
    I can still recall Dale Earnhart Sr going off in two and returning to the track just before turn six, passing a couple of cars in the process. A lesser driver would surely have crashed.
      Randy


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on July 23, 2014, 08:51:27 AM
Here's the last post from the July 1965 FORD TIMES - pgs 18 & 19.

"Gives honest pleasure" - isn't that great?

It sounds like a 1960's cigarette commercial or something! Marketing back then was a whole different ballgame wasn't it?

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/pgs_18-19.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on July 23, 2014, 09:29:45 AM
    That picture is taken at turn 9, the area that would ultimately cost Ken Miles his life :(   A year later.
    Randy


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on July 23, 2014, 09:55:03 AM
Thanks a lot Randy - it's good to have that photo ID'd for location.

So, in this November 1964 photo, does the inside of the track slope down to the right, and the Ford Times photo was taken looking up at the cars as they are taking a right hand turn?
(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Riverside_Raceway_-_Turn_9.jpg)



Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on July 24, 2014, 10:54:07 PM
Here are a couple of photocopies of some of 5R528's original paperwork that George has kept.

Its Factory Invoice (in color!):
(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/5R528_INVOICE.jpg)
A lot of us have seen factory invoices, but they're always black & white photocopies - one in color like this is a rare treat.



And this envelope from w. imperial hwy. was with its original paperwork:
(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/5R528_ENVELOPE.jpg)
This style of AIRMAIL envelope is something I remember from a long time ago, which is when I last saw one.
I'm guessing that most of us have never seen an original Shelby American envelope like this either - what a great piece!


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: A1965GT350 on July 24, 2014, 11:19:06 PM
Thank you SFM66H and George for all the effort to bring us these fantastic images  Chug a Lug


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on July 25, 2014, 08:36:52 AM
   RE reply #494,
         YES turn 9 was a near 180* turn. The B&W photo is just after mid turn and the slope is down to the right. The color Ford Times photo is taken from "down in the center" of the inside of the turn and approximately 5-600 feet "earlier" in the turn. To put it in terms of a clock, the B&W is just past twelve and the color is just before ten on a nine to three turn ( again clock wise). As the car is placed in the Ford Times photo , the track is higher and the cars are going clockwise , left to right. Water would often accumulate down in the bottom like the other "lake" in previous pictures. they were just from runoff and dried up quickly.
       Randy


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on July 25, 2014, 09:15:49 AM
In the last package that George sent me was a third photo that I recognized again as CSX2431 at Riverside. We've posted the other two photos of it here on GWC, both of them too are rare photos of the car with the L R E logo on the doors. Kranky did the Detective work for us & found out that the logo initials stand for LOWELL RACING ENTERPRISES - Thanks again Kranky.

This photo was not of the quality of the other two, but I worked with it & made it look as good as I possibly could.
An incredibly rare photo - and it IS in color!

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/CSX2431_in_L_R_E_livery_at_Riverside.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on July 25, 2014, 09:31:38 AM
    This one is exiting the pit lane as evidenced by the person on a portable chair. This lane entered near turn 1 and caused some "interesting" merges onto the track.
    Randy


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on July 25, 2014, 09:46:46 AM
Randy - Excellent Riverside photo information AGAIN - Thanks for your help with all of these photos!

                                                      Chug a Lug


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on July 26, 2014, 10:22:08 AM
Here's a 5x7 card that George has of 5R528 in action with caption info written by him:
(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/5_x_7_card_with_caption.jpg)


And here it is cropped for the photo collectors:

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/5_x_7_card_cropped_-_150_dpi.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: s2ms on July 26, 2014, 10:54:02 AM
Since Mark mentioned 5R528 and 5R002 racing at Waterford Hills, we thought this would be a perfect place to add this great photo of just that.
This is the front and back of the rare Waterford Hills R-Model postcard. The front shows Bill Clawson in 5R002 leading Bob Acton in 5R528 - the back shows the Racing Dates for 1968.
I only learned that this existed 2 days ago myself & we figured that most members didn't know it existed either and would enjoy seeing it.
I would love to have the actual postcard to scan & post here, but all George has now is these small thumbnail images. He had 3 or 4 of the postcards but didn't keep any.
He said they were mailed/given out in late 1967 and early 1968 and that they were the small standard size postcards that you would send thru the US Mail back then.

If anyone has one that they would temporarily share for a scan, it sure would make a great addition to the Shelby American History thread here on the Forum.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/The_R-Models_at_Waterford_Hills_postcard.jpg)

I have one of those postcards, if you need one to scan here

Here are the scans from Mark's postcard. The front has an annoying circular pattern, almost like a moire pattern, that makes the image look like crap at hi-res, it can be seen a little in the thumbnail. I applied several filters to remove it which makes the image look a little blurry, still a great photo. You can right-click on the images to save then to your computer at full 300dpi resolution.

Dave

(http://1965gt350mustang.com/temp/post_card_front_300.jpg)

(http://1965gt350mustang.com/temp/post_card_rear_300.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on July 26, 2014, 03:17:06 PM
Mark - Many Thanks for the generous loan of your poscard, and Dave, the same Thanks to you for scanning and posting it here.
                It is a very welcome addition to the GWC thread!
Chug a Lug                                                                         Chug a Lug


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: 5S003 on July 26, 2014, 11:04:13 PM
Hello Kieth, No problem on the Waterford postcard,as I have most of the '65 GT350 stuff laying around, but don't have the brains to scan it like Dave can, so the kudos should just go to Dave. The photos you posted on page 33 are the some of the ones I was referring to, the nice cropped color shot of 002 is from The Kellogg Archives, out of California, which I first saw on the last page of a Vintage Motorsports magazine a couple years back. This photo and the shot from Speed and Custom were taken at the GT350 debut on January 27, 1965 at Riverside raceways, they did have a perform a "mocked up" race including R002, I think CSX3002 (you can see the dry sump filler on the passenger side) ,a white GT40 and a Daytona Coupe, so perhaps this is the photo you posted recently from the Ford Times?  Frank Lance (ex Shelby American mechanic) told me all the Cobra mechanics had to be passengers in the early GT350's (most likely #005-#014 except 010), as the various journalists drove the cars around the track. Frank said all the mechaincs hated to spend the entire day being driven around. By the end of the day , almost all the GT350's were barely running. They later determined the finish on the cams had not been done properly, so all of those cars had to have their cams replaced.  003 was OK since this chassis was built a month to month and a half earlier.   ::)   


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on July 27, 2014, 01:53:35 PM
      The complete engines were replaced under Ford warranty within one week per Bruce Burness '65 production manager.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on July 28, 2014, 07:36:30 AM
The photos you posted on page 33 are the some of the ones I was referring to, the nice cropped color shot of 002 is from The Kellogg Archives, out of California, which I first saw on the last page of a Vintage Motorsports magazine a couple years back.
Mark - I did not know that photo had been published in Vintage Motorsport magazine before. Does anyone know what issue it was in?


This photo and the shot from Speed and Custom were taken at the GT350 debut on January 27, 1965 at Riverside raceways, they did have a perform a "mocked up" race including R002, I think CSX3002 (you can see the dry sump filler on the passenger side) ,a white GT40 and a Daytona Coupe, so perhaps this is the photo you posted recently from the Ford Times?
Yes, I agree that the Ford Times photo I posted here would be the one you're referring to.


Frank Lance (ex Shelby American mechanic) told me all the Cobra mechanics had to be passengers in the early GT350's (most likely #005-#014 except 010), as the various journalists drove the cars around the track. Frank said all the mechaincs hated to spend the entire day being driven around. By the end of the day , almost all the GT350's were barely running. They later determined the finish on the cams had not been done properly, so all of those cars had to have their cams replaced.  003 was OK since this chassis was built a month to month and a half earlier.       
Really interesting information that I had never heard before, Thanks for sharing it here!



Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on July 28, 2014, 07:59:18 AM
Here's the August 1966 Ford Times article about 'THOSE SHELBY AMERICAN CARS'.
We're putting the whole article in one post this time, thinking it would be easier to read in its entirety:

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/pg_29.jpg)

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/pgs_30-31.jpg)


And for Hertz Rent-A-Car owners, I thought I would crop this out of the last page because it's a great ad from Shelby American with an August 1966 date.
The patina of it makes a pretty cool thing to print out & display with your car.
 
(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Rent_a_Shelby_GT_350_from_Hertz.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on July 29, 2014, 09:04:54 AM
Here's the article 'HE'S TOPS IN CARS' from the May 1967 issue of FORD TIMES:

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/pg_17.jpg)

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/pgs_18-19~0.jpg)

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/pgs_20-21.jpg)


The color photograph below from George's collection has only been seen in publication one time by me - when he sent me this issue of the FORD TIMES! (see top of page 21)
(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/untitled-scanned-16.jpg)


And this 1967 GT350 on the top of page 19 is a beauty - a really rare period photograph that I would love to have a crisp 8x10 of:
(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/400_dpi.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on July 30, 2014, 08:50:26 AM
We have 6 more photos of 5R528 at Waterford Hills (1966-68) - we'll post them in sets of 3 (earliest date to latest) with a couple different things in between.

Here's one at the start of a race in July 1966, and you can see Bob Acton pointing at the photograper, Al Bizer!
The hi-res scan shows it even better, but it's still easy to see in this reduced size:  

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/5R528_at_Waterford_Hills%2C_MI_-_July_1966.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: richstang on July 30, 2014, 09:20:16 AM
Here's the article 'HE'S TOPS IN CARS' from the May 1967 issue of FORD TIMES:

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/pgs_18-19~0.jpg)

And this 1967 GT350 on the top of page 19 is a beauty - a really a rare period photograph that I would love to have a crisp 8x10 of:
(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/400_dpi.jpg)

and the hits keep coming...I can't keep up!
Thanks so much for posting the Ford Times '67 introduction article. The photo of Carroll sitting on the '67 hood with the red Cobra in the foreground is another new one for me!
+1 on the 8x10 of this B&W.
 Chug a Lug


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: richstang on July 30, 2014, 09:33:56 AM
We have 6 more photos of 5R528 at Waterford Hills (1966-68) - we'll post them in sets of 3 (earliest date to latest) with a couple different things in between.

Here's one at the start of a race in May 1966, and you can see Bob Acton pointing at the photograper, Al Bizer!
The hi-res scan shows it even better, but it's still easy to see in this reduced size: 

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/5R528_at_Waterford_Hills%2C_MI_-_May_1966.jpg)

It looks like the same competitors (as expected for the location). I imagine the changes/upgrades Bob made were not just maintenance (side exhaust) or rules changes (production rear glass), but also to give him an edge over the completion. I'm guessing the rule book was not as tight as it is in todays world and likely even more relaxed in the rural tracks. Any chance George might have a story or two about that. (I know this might be reaching, a bit)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: shelbymann1970 on July 30, 2014, 10:52:07 PM
I am not sure if anyone mentioned this, but it blows my mind that they have the rear fold-down sitting on the roof of each car.  Brand new cars...that's a lot of weight and hardware.

Also, this is car 231 upfront, as we know.  Does this car have upper scoop lights?  I was just curious as to when they stopped using the large-lettered Speedways and switched to the small-lettered.  This may have been mentioned before so I apologize if I am repeating something already covered.
Here is the car now. no upper lights.
(http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w61/shelbymann/misc%20cars/P1030120_zpsa6bf38d8.jpg) (http://s173.photobucket.com/user/shelbymann/media/misc%20cars/P1030120_zpsa6bf38d8.jpg.html)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on July 31, 2014, 09:05:04 AM
It looks like the same competitors (as expected for the location). I imagine the changes/upgrades Bob made were not just maintenance (side exhaust) or rules changes (production rear glass), but also to give him an edge over the completion. I'm guessing the rule book was not as tight as it is in todays world and likely even more relaxed in the rural tracks. Any chance George might have a story or two about that. (I know this might be reaching, a bit)

I reinserted this photo into richstang's quote here because it had disappeared from his reply #511.
I learned the hard way that when you go back into your gallery to make a date correction (which I did on this photo) it disappears from the posts and the quotes that it was in.
Sorry richstang!
The need to be historically accurate with dates was worth the lesson though. I had originally called it 'May 1966', but Al Bizer's label proved that it was JULY 1966.
 
(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/5R528_at_Waterford_Hills%2C_MI_-_July_1966.jpg)



Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on July 31, 2014, 09:16:23 AM
Well, it happened to work out well anyway by re-posting that previous photo above and then posting the next dated one right below it, because I was going to point out some differences anyway.
This one was taken in SEPT 1966, and you can see a couple different things about it from the July 1966 photo.
Namely, that the rocker stripe has been repaired/painted over and that its race number has changed from #174 to #74.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/5R528_in_action_at_Waterford_Hills_%289-66%29.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: car 26-JD on July 31, 2014, 09:21:04 AM
That Corvette is having a "moment" - driving in the rearview mirror?


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on July 31, 2014, 10:28:49 AM
That Corvette is having a "moment" - driving in the rearview mirror?

              NICE !


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: richstang on July 31, 2014, 11:29:02 AM
It looks like that Corvette is losing the backend a bit with the corrective steering while the R-model is in control with the right attitude through the turn.
Nice indeed!
So the question is who came out ahead in the end?

BTW; I made a snide comment about the checkered flagmen's polka dot shirt a while back in this thread.
Looking through some other race photos it seems to be a common practice (not just a bold 60's fashion choice, as I thought)  ::)
I still have much to learn.  :knock


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: car 26-JD on July 31, 2014, 12:04:54 PM
BTW; I made a snide comment about the checkered flagmen's polka dot shirt a while back in this thread.
Looking through some other race photos it seems to be a common practice (not just a bold 60's fashion choice, as I thought)  ::)

I think that was always the same guy, if I remember right that shirt was his "trademark"...

...back to the great imges....


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on August 01, 2014, 08:49:48 AM
This Al Bizer photograph of 5R528 is unique in that it has an exact date on the back - September 30, 1967. All of his other photos of it have just a month & year.
Also of note is that Bob Acton's son is driving the car in this one. George doesn't know if this photo was taken during practice or a race but says:

"He seems a little close to #57 for this to just be a practice."

But we don't really know for sure . . .
(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/5R528_at_Waterford_Hills_-_September_30%2C_1967.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: richstang on August 01, 2014, 04:31:13 PM
I would hate to be the other driver, looking into the rearview, with nothing but the '66 grille filling it all up.

I know they combined classes when the turnout was small, but this size difference just seems a bit too much. The GT350 could drive right over that little go-cart like a monster truck rally. If this was practice, I think Bob's son was out to prove something.

By the way, did you mention Bob Acton son's name before? Might as well give him credit for the event / date.

 PeelOut


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on August 02, 2014, 08:14:49 AM
By the way, did you mention Bob Acton son's name before? Might as well give him credit for the event / date.

No, his name has not been mentioned here, and I am not aware of what it is.
I hoped you or Kranky might be able to fill in that blank for us, because we do have an exact date for that photo.
It would be great to give him credit for it if you can.
Thanks!


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on August 02, 2014, 08:28:52 AM
Here is a photo of the trophies won by 5R528 - it was taken by George and was date stamped JUNE 1984.
This is what he had to say about it:

"Bob won these Trophies between 1966 thru 1968. Each trophy had the year and date, track name and position finish engraved on it.
They never went to each successive owner. When I spoke to Bob on the phone after I had bought 528 he said that he still had all of the trophies. I asked if I could have them and he said that he would send them to me. I paid for shipping and sent him a very small fee. When I sold 528 I gave the trophies and all original paperwork to the new owner but unfortunately after that everything was misplaced and lost. I took this picture of the trophies in 1984."

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/5R528_Trophies_%28GW_photo_-_June_1984%29.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Dmxf on August 03, 2014, 05:31:25 AM
"I asked if I could have them and he said that he would send them to me. I paid for shipping and sent him a very small fee."
(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/5R528_Trophies_%28GW_photo_-_June_1984%29.jpg)

Bob is one nice fellow. Years back I acquired some pictures of my Cobra taken for a magazine when it was new and the seller required payment of over a thousand dollars...


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on August 04, 2014, 09:48:25 AM
George says: "This is what you got for your Birthday from Carroll when you bought a Racing version GT 350."
 
It's the famous photo with a note from CS to Bob Acton dated 3-1-66. You'll recall that Bob had ordered 5R528 on 2-9-66.
Bob told George: "At the time it was so exciting to receive it."
George also notes: "Looks to me that if you bought a GT350 you were his 'GT350 Friend' and if you bought a Cobra you were his 'Cobra Friend' !!"

It's a pretty cool piece of paperwork to have . . .                                                        
(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Birthday_note_to_Bob_Acton_-_dated_3-1-66.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on August 04, 2014, 09:56:32 AM
Speaking of "a pretty cool piece of paperwork to have" (excuse my giddyness here ;D) George just sent me, get this:

A photocopy of the SHELBY AMERICAN VEHICLE ORDER FORM for 5R528!
 
When's the last time you saw one of those? Me neither!
I'll get it scanned & we'll be posting that next week.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on August 05, 2014, 09:15:57 AM
I noticed that the initials in the PAID stamp area of 5R528's Factory Invoice are 'CS', and that it sort of looks like Shelby's penmanship style.
I asked George what he thought:

"I would think that Carroll Shelby had more important things to do than dealing with the the individual orders of cars but I really don't know There are some similarities in the initials and C and S in his full signature."

If nothing else, it's pretty ironic though, isn't it?
(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Handwriting_Comparison.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on August 06, 2014, 08:46:43 AM
We're down to the last four Al Bizer photographs of 5R528 at Waterford Hills, MI during the 1966-68 seasons.

This one is dated MAY 1968.
I don't know if the inside tire lift was achieved by traction and handling, or if the splash is indicating a 'bounce' - but it sure looks remarkably stable during the lift, doesn't it?

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/5R528_at_Waterford_Hills%2C_MI_-_May_1968.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gjz30075 on August 06, 2014, 09:14:08 AM
Looks like he's riding the raised portion of the track because it looks like water is being splashed from that tire.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on August 07, 2014, 09:10:33 AM
These next 2 photos are dated SEPTEMBER 1968.
If you save these photos they should open up larger on your computer and there are some good background details to take in.
Not the least of which is the #96 Cobra - I hope richstang or Kranky can ID it for us.

The first one shows 5R528 in a slide:
(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Sept_1968_a_150_dpi_-_cropped.jpg)

And this one shows it stopped at the end of the slide, behind the tree:
(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Sept_1968_b_-_150_dpi_-_cropped.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: richstang on August 07, 2014, 10:03:16 AM
These two are great action sequence photos! I wonder if it could have been Bob's son driving at this later dated event? (I don't know his name either)

I'm not even on the same playing field as Kranky!

Here's a link to other photos from 1968 at Waterford. It shows the same cars (including the #96 Cobra) with close up photos. Unfortunately there are no pictures of the R-model. Perhaps it's because they date their photos from July 1968.
 
http://www.cliffreuter.com/etceteriniWaterfordHills1968Regionals.htm


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gjz30075 on August 07, 2014, 03:29:41 PM
Sorry for being slightly off topic but....does anyone know who the drivers were in the Lotus 7s?


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: richstang on August 07, 2014, 04:06:47 PM
These next 2 photos are dated SEPTEMBER 1968.
If you save these photos they should open up larger on your computer and there are some good background details to take in.
Not the least of which is the #96 Cobra - I hope richstang or Kranky can ID it for us.

Since the Cobra in both photos posted by SFM66H/Kieth and in my previous attached link from the cliffreuter site (July '68) are the same...I think we have this Cobra covered.

From Kranky's list;
Waterford Hills, Mich.-Scca Regional-7/27-28/1968
#96-csx2430-?-Dan Schlames

The question I have is what is the date of the race for these above 2 photos in September?
(Is it possible they were dated at a different time from the actual race?)

Sorry, I don't have a clue about the Lotus. Maybe someone else will know.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: KRANKY on August 07, 2014, 08:17:43 PM
For the September 1968 races....September 4 OCSRRC Club Meeting, September 14/15 SCCA Regional races and September 28/29 OCSRRC Fall Classic Races. 

The Lotus Super 7's might be Jeff Lances and Jeff Gahman's....but that is just speculation.  Many of the later Waterford Digests have photos from races but no captions or event coverage.

Kranky


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on August 07, 2014, 11:40:12 PM
Since the Cobra in both photos posted by SFM66H/Kieth and in my previous attached link from the cliffreuter site (July '68) are the same...I think we have this Cobra covered.
From Kranky's list;
Waterford Hills, Mich.-Scca Regional-7/27-28/1968
#96-csx2430-?-Dan Schlames

richstang - From the link that you posted above, I found this color photo.
And the Registry says: "Dan Schlames (MI) acquired 2430 in '67, repainted the car yellow with full-width red roll bar and red side pipes, and raced it in various SCCA events."
So you & Kranky did indeed have the Cobra ID# covered, but the only date info I have on those 2 photos of it as #96 is SEPTEMBER 1968 - Thanks for the help!
 
(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/CSX2430_when_owned_by_Dan_Schlames.jpeg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gjz30075 on August 08, 2014, 02:21:41 AM
Thanks Kranky.   I'm good friends with Jeff Lance's brother Clark.    He didn't recognize the first pic with the 7 but I'll show him the others.    Thanks again,   sorry for the hijack.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on August 08, 2014, 08:35:51 AM
And here's the last Al Bizer photo of 5R528 from George's collection.
This one is dated SEPTEMBER 1968. As Bob Acton raced it thru the 1968 season, this photo would be somewhat near the end of his racing career with it.
I see it's #54 here, the first time I'd seen it with that number. And also, by now some black electrical tape has been put into service on the front apron!

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/5R528_at_Waterford_Hills%2C_MI_-_Sept_1968.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: jguyer on August 08, 2014, 07:53:52 PM
I was thinking along the same lines; N=Negative, 5=roll (or file or folder); 20=exposure # on the roll, each frame is numbered.  Just a thought.

Really great thread thanks again for scanning and posting.

Dear Mr. Car26,

Obtained some photographs from Mr. Bizer in the '70's, you are close to correct except the N was for Nikon the other designation was R, I think it was for Rolleiflex.

John


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: richstang on August 09, 2014, 05:04:51 PM
For the September 1968 races....September 4 OCSRRC Club Meeting, September 14/15 SCCA Regional races and September 28/29 OCSRRC Fall Classic Races. 

The Lotus Super 7's might be Jeff Lances and Jeff Gahman's....but that is just speculation.  Many of the later Waterford Digests have photos from races but no captions or event coverage.

Kranky

Kranky,
Would you happen to know what the "OCSRRC" stands for?
I'm curious if Bob's 5r528 would have raced at these events besides the SCCA races.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: KRANKY on August 09, 2014, 08:18:14 PM
OCSRRC....stands for Oakland County Sportsmen's Road Racing Corporation....they also published the Waterford Hills Digest (Club Magazine).

Kranky


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: richstang on August 10, 2014, 08:13:23 AM
Thanks Kranky,
I did some light reading about the early history of the OCSC / OCSRRC at the below link (for any others who are interested)

http://www.waterfordhills.com/club-history.shtml


SFM66H,
I think your last photo of 5r528 as #54 with light front end and right side damage might be from the same race as the prior two photos (noted as Sept 1968). If you zoom in on the photo of 5r528 behind the small tree you can barely make out the #54. I would venture a guess that the damage in this last photo is from the sliding rear of that Porsche 504 into the door area. While the valance damage could be from tagging that small tree or from the nose of the Porsche which is about the right height of the front valance. Just a thought.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: ChicagoChris on August 10, 2014, 09:42:04 AM
A great write up of a time long ago.  Pretty neat.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on August 11, 2014, 08:50:46 AM
SFM66H,
I think your last photo of 5r528 as #54 with light front end and right side damage might be from the same race as the prior two photos (noted as Sept 1968). If you zoom in on the photo of 5r528 behind the small tree you can barely make out the #54. I would venture a guess that the damage in this last photo is from the sliding rear of that Porsche 504 into the door area. While the valance damage could be from tagging that small tree or from the nose of the Porsche which is about the right height of the front valance. Just a thought.

richstang -
Keen observations, I agree with all of them. I too had believed that the #54 photo was from the same race, but you putting together the visual damage to '528 with how it likely occured really ties all 3 of the photos together.
Thanks!


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on August 11, 2014, 09:37:31 AM
Speaking OF that #54 photo (and this is just me going off on a tangent of personal thoughts here) it always makes me think of a different location for some reason!
I know that this is an Al Bizer photo (that I cropped) of 5R528 at Waterford Hills, MI.
But everytime I look at it, it reminds me of a Dave Friedman photo that could have been taken at Nassau, Bahamas!
Many of Friedman's photos were taken at an angle like this, and the location details remind me of photos that he DID take at Nassau.
Kind of a 'natural' area in the background, even the terrain at the bottom of the photo looks like it could be coral scrapings or something to me.
Anyway, I just thought I would throw in what I see as some photo similarities into the thread:

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/5R528_-_Sept_1968_-_cropped.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on August 11, 2014, 05:59:51 PM
Here is the SHELBY AMERICAN VEHICLE ORDER Form for 5R528 that we said we would post this week.
I'm re-posting the envelope again to show what it was mailed in and to show that both have the date of February 9, 1966.
The words "To arrive first week in March" (at left, below the Dealer Name & Address box) were written on 2-9-66 along with the rest of the typewritten info when the Order Form was originally made. (the Registry says Acton & Bradley purchased it on 3/9/66 - the first week of March).

But the other handwriting that you can also see is explained by George: "I have found a xerox copy of the Vehicle Delivery Receipt which was on top of the Vehicle Order Form and since they both had a carbon attached at one time there was a bleed thru." The words you see here are: "I John B. Addison purchased the above 1966 G.T. 350 from Robert Acton, since sold to John Whitmore this date 9/27/73 (then signed John B. Addison)."

George just informed me today that he is also sending me a copy of the Original Delivery Receipt that is signed by Robert S. Acton on 2/25/66. That will fit very well here along with the rest of this original 5R528 paperwork - and will add to the many 'Firsts' I have seen here on the GWC thread! 

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Shelby_American_Vehicle_Order_Form_%285R528%29.jpg)

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/5R528_ENVELOPE.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: s2ms on August 11, 2014, 08:55:15 PM
This may have already been mentioned and I missed it but...in the photos from 1968, including the postcard photo, 5R528 looks to have mufflers of some sort attached to the end of the side pipes...

Dave


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on August 12, 2014, 09:41:20 AM
Here's the 'Fire and Refinement' article from the JULY 1969 issue of Ford Times:

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/pg_45.jpg)

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/pgs_46-47.jpg)



George says: "I bought my first car, a white '67 Mustang fastback from Ralph Williams Ford in Encino and ended up on their mailing list. I got the car in the summer of 1967."
Also: "I remember they had a Lime Gold '67 GT 500 in the showroom at the time. That is what I really wanted!!"
(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Back_cover_-_July_1969_-_cropped.jpg)



Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on August 12, 2014, 10:19:00 AM
George has this to add about the Ralph Williams Ford post above when he was looking for a car in 1967:

"I remember during the summer of '67 when I was looking for my first car my Dad would take me to many of the Ford dealers in the LA area to look. Most had at least one '67 Shelby on the lot. We lived about 2 miles from Ralph Williams Ford and a friend of my Uncle was the sales manager so we found the car I bought there. Ralph Williams was a very large Dealer in Encino. He had more car commercials on TV than any other Dealer in the Los Angeles area in the mid 60's to early 70's.
I remember him telling me that Ford was having a tough time selling the '67 Shelby Mustangs so they asked the Ford dealers to take at least one to try and sell."


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: jguyer on August 13, 2014, 06:19:09 AM
This may have already been mentioned and I missed it but...in the photos from 1968, including the postcard photo, 5R528 looks to have mufflers of some sort attached to the end of the side pipes...

Dave

After people moved in next to the track, they started complaining about the noise.
Don't know when, but they put a noise level limit and measured it at the wall along the back straight.
Thus the mufflers, usually an add on so they could be removed for other tracks.

John


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on August 13, 2014, 08:18:44 AM
After people moved in next to the track, they started complaining about the noise.
Don't know when, but they put a noise level limit and measured it at the wall along the back straight.
Thus the mufflers, usually an add on so they could be removed for other tracks.

John

Thanks John - This photo that we had posted here previously makes your point very well!
(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/5R528_at_Waterford_Hills%2C_MI_%28May_1967%29_b.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on August 13, 2014, 08:50:58 AM
Now we are down to the last three of George's 8x10 photos. This one and the one we will post tomorrow may have been seen by members before (carmemories.com) and they are watermarked with a guy's name and the year 2004. But as GW has pointed out, these have been in his collection for at least 35 years.

When I first started working with George I had no idea of exactly where many well known photos had been taken, but had always wanted to know.
Because of our common passion for all things LAX, he would endure my many questions about exact locations and then try to describe the spot to me in detail. But as I was not as familiar with LAX as he, I would usually get it wrong. So I started putting these inset photos into LAX aerial photos and emailing them to him until he said I had it right. I have always really gotten a kick out of being able to do that with him, and here's a good example.

This is what we call 'the shed' and it is attached to the East Hangar. The photo of the car itself was always very cool, but with George being able to point out its exact lacation at LAX, it becomes even much more significant to me. And then having the aerial view really puts it into perspective:

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/1966_GT350_by_The_Shed_on_the_East_Hangar.jpg)

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/66_by_the_shed_on_the_east_hangar.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: richstang on August 13, 2014, 09:03:44 AM
After people moved in next to the track, they started complaining about the noise.
Don't know when, but they put a noise level limit and measured it at the wall along the back straight.
Thus the mufflers, usually an add on so they could be removed for other tracks.

John

I can never understand how people could move into a home near a race track already in place and then afterward get all up in arms over the noise levels. I have a friend who bought a large piece of property and built a beautiful estate and barn to raise and care for horses just about a half mile away from Atco, NJ. Then of course they joined in a petition to shut down and/or limit racing at the track that had been there long before they even had the property.  HeadSpin


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: richstang on August 13, 2014, 09:06:19 AM
Now we are down to the last three of George's 8x10 photos. This one and the one we will post tomorrow may have been seen by members before (carmemories.com) and they are watermarked with a guy's name and the year 2004. But as GW has pointed out, these have been in his collection for at least 35 years.

When I first started working with George I had no idea of exactly where many well known photos had been taken, but had always wanted to know.
Because of our common passion for all things LAX, he would endure my many questions about exact locations and then try to describe the spot to me in detail. But as I was not as familiar with LAX as he, I would usually get it wrong. So I started putting these inset photos into LAX aerial photos and emailing them to him until he said I had it right. I have always really gotten a kick out of being able to do that with him, and here's a good example.

This is what we call 'the shed' and it is attached to the East Hangar. The photo of the car itself was always very cool to me, but with George being able to point out its exact lacation at LAX, it becomes even much more significant to me. And then having the aerial view really puts it into perspective:

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/66_by_the_shed_on_the_east_hangar.jpg)

This is a great picture to show us exactly where the original photo was taken. Nice work!


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: ChicagoChris on August 13, 2014, 10:26:50 AM
Didn't Ralph Williams own (or co-own) Huntington Beach Ford in the mid 1980's? 

Might be mistaken, but also thought he had some car related legal trouble along the way.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: acman63 on August 13, 2014, 02:29:22 PM
He had great ads

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSwudVkIPK4


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM6S087 on August 14, 2014, 02:03:44 AM
The photos, paperwork, and information in this thread are nothing short of amazing. Add my voice to the chorus of those who wish to thank Keith and George for their diligent and time-consuming work in sharing this here. And to all the others who have added their knowledge to the discussion.

Steve


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on August 14, 2014, 08:50:36 AM
Hi Steve - Thanks for the kind words.
George and I have said several times how glad we both are that we embarked on this project and how worthwhile it has been for both of us to share it all here.

You have brought up the other very important point to note here too - How much we have appreciated the participation and the help of all of the SAAC Members here. We have learned more than we ever even hoped to about information about his photos. Things like car serial numbers, locations, dates & event names, etc. None of that would have been possible without everyone here who chose to join in the discussions.

Since this started, I have met people I wouldn't have otherwise and have been corresponding with several others who are more knowledgeable than I and with the same enthusiasm. Sharing info & knowledge with them is an unexpected bonus. One of them has said that the SAAC Forum is his 'home' on the internet - I feel the same way.

The SAAC Forum, as I have always said, and SAAC itself, is comprised of the best enthusiasts that I can imagine. It's still amazing to me to be able to come here and access the most knowledgeable people in the world about anything Shelby American, and they just jump right in and help you. It doesn't get any better than that - anywhere.

Kieth


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on August 14, 2014, 09:27:48 AM
This photo is a different view of the same car that I posted in reply #550 (the side profile view), the one parked by 'the shed' on the East Hangar - but now you're looking west.
George and I really struggled pinpointing the exact location of this photo, always noting the wood 4x4 parking strip by the tire that could also be seen in photos that ran along the front of the Hangars.
We were trying to count parking lines etc.
Then it dawned on George - the large, 4-poled electrical platform that is behind the car could also be seen in the aerial photo!
Another location successfully pinpointed!

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/1966_GT350_by_the_east_hangar_-_looking_west.jpg)

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/66_by_east_hangar.jpg)

I just wanted to add here too, that I can see how it might look easy to do this when you are just viewing the result, but it isn't so easy when you are searching for the result!

There are 3 versions of the LAX aerial photo - the most common one is the well-published one looking STRAIGHT WEST.
But the one seen here is a cropped view of the second-least seen view looking NORTH WEST.
And the rarest, least-seen view is looking EAST.
George and I have made some more discoveries using these other views.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: richstang on August 14, 2014, 10:06:36 AM
This '66 GT350 is interesting with it's American Mags, deleted grille pony emblem, and standard issue license plate. I'd venture a guess this was an employee's personal car. (there were no leases back then, right?) Would this be considered a "day 2 period mod". Removing the bumper guards would have been my next step to make the car appear wider and lower.

Pointing out the location to us up front it does make it seem obvious where the photo was taken. Of course hindsight is 20/20.

Kieth, you mention there are three photo's of this LAX facility. I've only seen the two facing west. I had one that I thought was facing east but it turned out that it was a flopped and reversed photo of the (north west photo) that someone dupped me with. If possible, would you share that 3rd view you have facing east?




Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on August 14, 2014, 10:13:14 AM
   Of interest in the above photo. No running horse in grill, non dealer plates, and the square paper in the lower portion of the pass side windshield is the "temporary" registration , normally removed after plates are given OR when a vehicle ownership is transferred. Someone like Bernie might remember whos car it was if it was an employee's car.
   Randy


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on August 14, 2014, 10:21:47 AM
Pointing out the location to us up front it does make it seem obvious where the photo was taken. Of course hindsight is 20/20.
My point exactly, because you CANNOT see the 4-pole electrical platform in the well known/published view that looks straight West (unless you know exactly where to look for what).
It's only when you have the less-seen North West view that the 4 poles become visible.


Kieth, you mention there are three photo's of this LAX facility. I've only seen the two facing west. I had one that I thought was facing east but it turned out that it was a flopped and reversed photo of the (north west photo) that someone dupped me with. If possible, would you share that 3rd view you have facing east?
That flopped & reversed photo REALLY messed us up too until I used software to prove to us that we weren't going mad.
I'll post the view looking East but will have to do it later as work time is calling . . .


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on August 15, 2014, 12:09:45 AM
Kieth, you mention there are three photo's of this LAX facility. I've only seen the two facing west.  If possible, would you share that 3rd view you have facing east?

richstang - Here it is, looking EAST, and if you save it on your computer it should open up larger than you see it here.
Isn't it beautiful? We're looking at the Competition Hangar at the bottom. Notice the R-Models on the west end of the hangar, and a couple are without hoods.
It also shows a rarely seen view of the Sales Office, between the two Hangars.
George and I have spent some time with this photo and he has made some really interesting discoveries using it. 

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/VIEW_3_BEST_%28looking_east%29.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Brant on August 15, 2014, 05:00:36 AM
This photo is a different view of the same car that I posted in reply #550 (the side profile view), the one parked by 'the shed' on the East Hangar - but now you're looking west.
George and I really struggled pinpointing the exact location of this photo, always noting the wood 4x4 parking strip by the tire that could also be seen in photos that ran along the front of the Hangars.
We were trying to count parking lines etc.
Then it dawned on George - the large, 4-poled electrical platform that is behind the car could also be seen in the aerial photo!
Another location successfully pinpointed!

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/1966_GT350_by_the_east_hangar_-_looking_west.jpg)


Very cool!

This is 6S278.  It was an employee lease car that was purchased by the employee when the lease was up.  There is more information in the Registry.

There was a batch of cars that were apparently registered by SA all at one time and received consecutive license plate numbers.  Here is the list from Howard:

6S033  RFJ 650
6S109  RFJ 649
6S278  RFJ 648
6S280  RFJ 647
6S289  RFJ 646


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on August 15, 2014, 07:22:50 AM
    Thanks Brant,
        I was shooting from the hip. Didn't think about the registry. Great info.
      Randy


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on August 15, 2014, 07:28:53 AM
Very cool!

This is 6S278.  It was an employee lease car that was purchased by the employee when the lease was up.  There is more information in the Registry.

There was a batch of cars that were apparently registered by SA all at one time and received consecutive license plate numbers.  Here is the list from Howard:

6S033  RFJ 650
6S109  RFJ 649
6S278  RFJ 648
6S280  RFJ 647
6S289  RFJ 646

Brant - This is incredible information! Thank you very much for sharing/posting it! To be honest, I never suspected that this car would be ID'd.
But I should have known better, this is yet another example of how the Forum and its Members benefit/help each other.
Thanks Brant!


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on August 15, 2014, 07:56:50 AM
Well, here is George's last 8x10 photo from his collection. It's an original photograph and he said he's had it a very long time.
It's so nice being able to scan an original photograph, they're so much different/better than magazine or other publication photographs.
And of course, I really liked it right away and it looked very 'familiar' to me - like I had seen it many times, you know?
It's a comparison of Ken Miles' famous CSX2431 to a Street version 289 Cobra.

But the more I kept looking at it . . . . . . . then it hit me . . . . . . . .

(I originally had another photograph right under it here in this same post, but then I decided to post that one next, separately. Because of how when you see an immediate result it's very clear to you, but not seeing it immediately better illustrates why it may have been missed initially).

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Race_car_%28CSX2431%29_Street_car_comparison.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on August 15, 2014, 08:16:17 AM
And here's what finally hit me - they're facing the other way in George's photograph!
This more familiar view below has been published many times in many SAAC publications and magazines.
No big deal you say? (and it may not be) But I went thru my entire collection (which is quite extensive) and I never found a photograph taken from the angle that George's photograph was.

Others here may be familiar with his photograph, and I'm not saying it has never been published, I'm just saying that it was new to me and I couldn't find a copy anywhere.
If anybody knows where else it can be seen, I hope they chime in here & share where it has been because I am curious about the rarity of his 'facing left' version of the 'Comparison Photograph'.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/page_19_%28CSX2431%29.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: richstang on August 15, 2014, 08:41:52 PM
richstang - Here it is, looking EAST, and if you save it on your computer it should open up larger than you see it here.
Isn't it beautiful? We're looking at the Competition Hangar at the bottom. Notice the R-Models on the west end of the hangar, and a couple are without hoods.
It also shows a rarely seen view of the Sales Office, between the two Hangars.
George and I have spent some time with this photo and he has made some really interesting discoveries using it. 

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/VIEW_3_BEST_%28looking_east%29.jpg)

Thanks SFM66H!
It does opens up much larger after I saved it! Nice to see the other side of the hangers and all the details, as you mentioned.
 :partyon

These aerial views must have been taken in a helicopter, but I still wonder how they got permission to hover over airport property.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: richstang on August 15, 2014, 08:57:30 PM
Well, here is George's last 8x10 photo from his collection. It's an original photograph and he said he's had it a very long time.
It's so nice being able to scan an original photograph, they're so much different/better than magazine or other publication photographs.
And of course, I really liked it right away and it looked very 'familiar' to me - like I had seen it many times, you know?
It's a comparison of Ken Miles' famous CSX2431 to a Street version 289 Cobra.

But the more I kept looking at it . . . . . . . then it hit me . . . . . . . .

(I originally had another photograph right under it here in this same post, but then I decided to post that one next, separately. Because of how when you see an immediate result it's very clear to you, but not seeing it immediately better illustrates why it may have been missed initially).

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Race_car_%28CSX2431%29_Street_car_comparison.jpg)

Nice catch! I would have looked right past this one thinking it was the other version. Now I'll been on the lookout.

I actually like this version better with the street version in the foreground.
This photo and the '65 GT350 street / R model are two of my favorite pictures! (Now if only they were in color)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on August 16, 2014, 07:50:17 AM
Nice catch! I would have looked right past this one thinking it was the other version. Now I'll been on the lookout.

I actually like this version better with the street version in the foreground.
This photo and the '65 GT350 street / R model are two of my favorite pictures! (Now if only they were in color)


Good point to bring up the '65 GT350 Street & R-Model comparison photos here, because George's photo now proves that there were 'bookend' comparison photos taken by Shelby American of Cobras too!
That makes a really nice set of four good photos. Both versions of these two GT350 photos were widely published, unlike the two versions of the Cobra comparison photos.

It's hard to pick a favorite one of these two also . . .

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Shelby_American_Public_Relations_Photo_2.jpg)

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Shelby_American_Public_Relations_Photo_1.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on August 18, 2014, 09:34:35 AM
Here's another first for me, seeing something like this.

George just sent me this last piece of Factory paperwork - Delivery Receipt #571 - check THIS out though . . .
You see here that Bob Acton signed this receipt for a car with a different serial number! Isn't that incredible?
This receipt is clearly mis-typed SFM 5R529 when the car was actually 5R528.
The other two pieces of Factory paperwork for 528 also had mistakes that were corrected, but not this one.
I asked George about this and wondered if Bob ever said anything to him about it. Here's what he said:

"No, Bob did not say anything about the wrong serial number. I just think that the numbers were not as important to the owners of our cars during that period. He probably did not even realize that it was wrong. Better to have the wrong number on the Delivery Receipt than on the Invoice or Certificate Of Origin."  

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Delivery_Receipt_for_5R528_%28NOT_529%29.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: cobrabob on August 18, 2014, 10:22:49 AM
Also, note that the receipt refers to the car as a 1966 rather than a '65! Or did SAI consider some R models to be '66 model year cars?


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on August 18, 2014, 12:12:15 PM
   Bob ,
      Those cars sold in '66 were called '66s despiite having the '65 vin tag. Since they were "race cars" licensing was not an issue anyone had to deal with.
   Randy


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on August 19, 2014, 08:32:18 AM
The 2011 Registry (pg 208) states that calling an R-Model that was built in 1966 "a 1966 R-Model" would be inaccurate, because of its 5Rxxx serial number.
The last production run of them just had a couple of updated ('66) visual features.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Inaccurate_1966_R-Model_Explanation.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on August 19, 2014, 09:34:06 AM
    We all know there were no '66 VIN R models and I was not implying that. I was noting the 1966 call out on the original invoice.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on August 19, 2014, 09:48:22 AM
    We all know there were no '66 VIN R models and I was not implying that. I was noting the 1966 call out on the original invoice.

randy - I know you were not implying that there were any '66 VIN R's, - and it was good that you brought up the subject of the year 1966 being on the paperwork.
I just thought that would be a good place to insert that Registry paragraph for clarification of the terminology for others, including myself!



Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on August 20, 2014, 09:21:56 AM
Because George's sharing of 5R528's Factory paperwork with us was such a rare priveledge, I wanted to show the documents sequentially by date in the same post for easy reference.

First is the VEHICLE ORDER form dated 2-9-66. This is the date that Robert Acton and J. C. Bradley ordered the car. The Registry shows that Shelby American finished the car two days later, on 2/11/66, as per work order #17525 (that work order had been started on 6/24/65). You can see that the typewritten serial #9 was crossed out and manually changed to an 8. The handwriting on this was document was not there when it was first created, it is carbon copy 'bleed thru' from a later sale transaction.
  
(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Shelby_American_Vehicle_Order_Form_%285R528%29.jpg)



Next is the DELIVERY RECEIPT dated 2/25/66. This is the date that the car was shipped to Acton and Bradley in Detroit, MI. On this document you can see that the serial# again was typed with a 9, and was not corrected. The typewritten date was 'X'd out and corrected. Here you can see the handwriting again in its entirety, but again, it was not there when this document was created, but from a later sale to John Addison in 1973.    

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Delivery_Receipt_for_5R528_%28NOT_529%29.jpg)



And last is the INVOICE dated 3/9/66. This is the date that they purchased the car. On the Invoice the entire 5R529 was 'X'd out and changed to 5R528.
   *  *   PAID  *  *  

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/5R528_INVOICE.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: richstang on August 23, 2014, 02:39:25 PM
As always, thanks for sharing!!!
I've never seen any of these paper before for an R model (and may never see them from any other R again).
 Chug a Lug

Nice to see a continuous paper trail (order form, delivery receipt, and invoice) on the same car.
I guess it was acceptable to make corrections on legal paperwork back then.

On the order form, I noticed the box for stripes is not checked. Would that mean competition models received the (LeMans) stripes standard?


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on August 23, 2014, 04:36:19 PM
GWC UPDATE - 8/23/14 - Good news if you're a GWC follower!

Well, the 5R528 paperwork was finally the end of GWC, and today I was doing an inventory and packing up all of George's collection to return it to him, after all these months.
Imagine my surprise then, when I found another envelope of 30 items! He had sent me packages on six different occasions and I had them stashed in a really safe, out of the way location.
I would just have one envelope out at a time as I was working on it and would then rotate it back into the stash when done.
Somehow I overlooked one during this rotation process and it was not accounted for until everything was removed today to return it all to him.
I just called him to sheepishly explain what happened, and we both had a laugh as we each could see how that could happen when dealing with so much material over such a period of time.

So there's been a reprieve to the demise of GWC - we'll be starting the last chapter next week!


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on August 23, 2014, 04:43:40 PM
On the order form, I noticed the box for stripes is not checked. Would that mean competition models received the (LeMans) stripes standard?

Good question richstang, but I'm not sure how that worked - maybe someone here does though?
Like you, I had never seen ANY paperwork like that before, so I'm as interested as you are to learn more about it.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: iamcanadian on August 23, 2014, 04:49:25 PM
On the order form, I noticed the box for stripes is not checked. Would that mean competition models received the (LeMans) stripes standard?


I was thinking about that also. The order form would appear to be a 1966 order form, as the order number begins with 66 (which may denote the year) and many of the optional items on the form were only available for the 1966 model year, ie: optional rear seats, optional "no spin" rear axle, auto transmission. Seems odd now that someone could still order a 1965 car "from the factory" in 1966.

BTW - awesome thread!


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: 427heaven on August 23, 2014, 06:11:21 PM
He had great ads

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSwudVkIPK4
   Hysterical Hysterical Hysterical Hysterical Hysterical Calls it like he sees it!


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: 66S285 on August 24, 2014, 07:20:35 PM
Brant - This is incredible information! Thank you very much for sharing/posting it! To be honest, I never suspected that this car would be ID'd.
But I should have known better, this is yet another example of how the Forum and its Members benefit/help each other.
Thanks Brant!


Interesting. My car also originally an employee lease car.

Rick


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on August 25, 2014, 09:57:37 AM
Another great LAX Display photo with a lot to look at - here's what I've noticed:

It looks like the 'yellow display engine' again. Another good view of the 'Bus Stop' (still hoping that someone with knowledge of exactly what this was will chime in here). The 427 Comp car really looks to me like it could be Richard Messersmith's CSX3018 (no top stripes, same roundel that is ahead of the door, a Cobra emblem inside the nose roundel, black roll bar & side pipes, and what looks like it could be the same blue color, etc.). A hi-res scan shows the 427 street car exhaust system in great detail, including its semi-gloss black finish. The GT350's by the blast wall consist of two '65's & two '66's, the one at right is a Carryover car. I'm not sure of the significance of the headers below the display engine.
 
(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Untitled-Scanned-01_-_150_dpi.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM6S087 on August 25, 2014, 11:09:57 AM
Yep, that's a carryover on the right in the background. No backup lights. Good eye, Kieth. You know you got my attention with that.

When all the clues are combined, can anyone zero in on a date for this photo? Maybe a date range?

Steve


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on August 25, 2014, 12:36:05 PM
   The headres are the "drag race headers" made by Doug Thorley back in the day. They were an R model update and later became the "trans am" headers .
    Randy


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: richstang on August 25, 2014, 05:35:00 PM
Yep, that's a carryover on the right in the background. No backup lights. Good eye, Kieth. You know you got my attention with that.

When all the clues are combined, can anyone zero in on a date for this photo? Maybe a date range?

Steve

I would venture a guess in the month of September. The previous photos (posted in this GWC thread) with this same engine show the #69 Don Pike Shelby T/A coupe which I believe was first race at GVR 9/10/66 followed by Riverside 9/18/66. I thought I read (perhaps on the ponysite) the car was put together quickly to help gain additional points at the end of the T/A season.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on August 25, 2014, 06:15:21 PM
   The headres are the "drag race headers" made by Doug Thorley back in the day. They were an R model update and later became the "trans am" headers .
    Randy

Excellent - Thanks Randy!


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on August 26, 2014, 07:56:57 AM
   The headers appear in several SAI catalogs.
       Randy


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: 6S2020 on August 26, 2014, 02:46:02 PM
  The headers appear in several SAI catalogs.
       Randy

Also in Registry on pages 1261 FIA specs and 1270 SAI catalog.
I would venture a guess in the month of September. The previous photos (posted in this GWC thread) with this same engine show the #69 Don Pike Shelby T/A coupe which I believe was first race at GVR 9/10/66 followed by Riverside 9/18/66. I thought I read (perhaps on the ponysite) the car was put together quickly to help gain additional points at the end of the T/A season.

Anyone think the dark 66 in the back ground could be black if so it could be 2020?


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on August 27, 2014, 12:33:53 AM
Here's another nice 3.5" x 5" photo of the display engine at LAX.
George notes: "It's nice to see inside the back of the Race Shop hangar overhang (West hangar) and it looks like a silver 427 Cobra in the background."

Of interest to me is the correct routing of the #7 cylinder plug wire in the photo. It is exactly as shown in this diagram from Ford's 1965 Body Engineering Electrical Equipment Installation Manual.
A hi-res scan of the photo shows no flat washers or lock washers on the valve covers, only the bolts themselves. It also shows well the Rotunda oil filter sticker.
That is a sweet looking MK I parked close by and also a '66 Galaxie convertible under the overhang.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Untitled-Scanned-02_-_150_dpi.jpg)

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/%237_cylinder_wire_routing_%28FoMoCo_1965%29.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Dan Case on August 27, 2014, 03:15:01 AM
Here's another nice 3.5" x 5" photo of the display engine at LAX.

Is this photo dated?


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on August 27, 2014, 08:33:43 AM
Is this photo dated?
No it isn't - there's nothing on the back at all. With all the Al Bizer photos being dated, it spoils you wanting the same for all the rest.

George has a half dozen original 8x10 photos coming up of 427 Cobra components & suspension taken inside Shelby American that have hand written numbers on the back of them.
They are all labeled 16 - 452 - xx. The xx's are all different, as though they are numerically sequenced.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on August 27, 2014, 11:48:55 PM
Here's the first 8x10 that I was talking about - you can see 'LEFT' written on the knockoff.

                         LEFT FRONT:
(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Untitled-Scanned-01_-_150_dpi~0.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on August 28, 2014, 07:36:17 AM
   I spoke with Bernie K last weekend and he remembers the red , non hi po fastback, being an employee car. "Possibly" a lady in the office. He lamented a car like that would have taken too much rework to "Shelbyize" LOL They did buy one K code from a dealer but it was a "bare bones", K code hi po fastback,
"possibly" light blue.
     Randy


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on August 28, 2014, 08:57:34 AM
Here's the next one, but we need some help with the details - our 427 Cobra knowledge is not as extensive as some other catagories.
First of all, Comp car or Street car? What appears to be a brake cooling scoop is throwing me off, if Street cars had them I didn't know about it.
I thought that Street cars had aluminum inner fender panels - this one has a raw fiberglass panel behind the door, and with no undercoating on it.
I also don't know if Comp cars came with a parking brake, but I'm guessing they did.
And what are the braided hoses for, fuel or differential cooler or ?
Thanks for the help!

                         LEFT REAR:
(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Untitled-Scanned-52_-_150_dpi.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: richstang on August 28, 2014, 09:07:23 AM
   I spoke with Bernie K last weekend and he remembers the red , non hi po fastback, being an employee car. "Possibly" a lady in the office. He lamented a car like that would have taken too much rework to "Shelbyize" LOL They did buy one K code from a dealer but it was a "bare bones", K code hi po fastback,
"possibly" light blue.
     Randy
great detective work Randy,
I don't recall this car discussed or pictured in this GWC thread, so I'm guessing you are referring to the car in this link below (photo in the Freidman collection) parked behind the Carter street building, correct? Curious that it doesn't have license plates though.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/thehenryford/6779679118/in/set-72157629078946882


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Maxjets on August 28, 2014, 09:31:25 AM
The Shelby American section in the Freidman collection has some impressive photos. I had a million questions while scanning.

Who? What? When? Where?

We could have a separate thread just about those pics.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Dan Case on August 28, 2014, 09:37:21 AM
Here's the next one, but we need some help with the details - our 427 Cobra knowledge is not as extensive as some other catagories.
First of all, Comp car or Street car? What appears to be a brake cooling scoop is throwing me off, if Street cars had them I didn't know about it.
I thought that Street cars had aluminum inner fender panels - this one has a raw fiberglass panel behind the door, and with no undercoating on it.
I also don't know if Comp cars came with a parking brake, but I'm guessing they did.
And what are the braided hoses for, fuel or differential cooler or ?

Thanks for the help!

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Untitled-Scanned-52_-_150_dpi.jpg)

The two images so far are of a competition 427 Cobra. 


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: rkm on August 28, 2014, 10:43:10 AM
Comp or S/C.

You can see the end of the rear cooling scoop.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: rkm on August 28, 2014, 10:49:10 AM
And I'll bet S/C. The fiberglass insert would stop stone bumps in the paint from stones thown up by the tires.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Dan Case on August 28, 2014, 11:08:11 AM
And I'll bet S/C. The fiberglass insert would stop stone bumps in the paint from stones thown up by the tires.

That looks very early to me, maybe before the first competition appearance. I will defer to the guys that know early competition cars, which were different than later cars, to join in.  That fiberglass (thin fiberglass) is half the inner wheel well in front of the rear wheel. That and the seat is all that is between the spinning wheel and anything it tosses or runs over and the driver's lower back. It is just a vertical section filling that area of the wheel well so no rear fender protection.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: 06 GT on August 28, 2014, 04:46:58 PM
The Bus Stop - there are several around LAX. A shuttle bus ran around hauling people from out lying lots to their jobs at the terminals.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on August 28, 2014, 11:56:05 PM
The Bus Stop - there are several around LAX. A shuttle bus ran around hauling people from out lying lots to their jobs at the terminals.

Great! Thanks for this feedback on the Bus Stop!


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: richstang on August 29, 2014, 03:22:20 PM
The Bus Stop - there are several around LAX. A shuttle bus ran around hauling people from out lying lots to their jobs at the terminals.

Seems kind of silly to put up an outhouse sized building just to indicate a pick-up drop off spot. I would think that a bench with a sign would make more sense. In several photos posted of "The Bus Stop" you can see some pipes and conduit in the back of the building. Wouldn't that indicate more of a purpose. Did the other "Bus Stops" around LAX look identical? 


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on September 01, 2014, 08:37:35 AM
OK, need help with this one too. This is another shot of the rear suspension, but now it has an anti-roll bar and a brake cooling scoop that is fabricated out of aluminum.
But, this inner fender well does not have that raw fiberglass panel on the right (where the seat would be) as in the previous rear suspension photo.
So if the previous photos were of a Comp car, I was wondering why this brake cooling scoop would be a more robust fabrication of aluminum (if it's a street car).
Could these photos be of early & late Comp cars?
               
                         RIGHT REAR:
(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Untitled-Scanned-53_-_150_dpi.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: rkm on September 01, 2014, 09:54:21 AM
 This one has the quick change brake pad set up. So it's likely a comp car.

I think the anti roll bar is a team experiment. The frame has a welded on bracket to mount it under the main frame tubes.

Kim


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on September 01, 2014, 10:05:09 AM
rkm - Would this previous photo be a better view of the quick change brake pad setup?
How does it differ from the street car setup?

(clarification: the photo below is NOT a quick change pad setup)
(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Untitled-Scanned-01_-_150_dpi~0.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on September 02, 2014, 08:31:20 AM
This one shows the vent hose - the same handwritten 'LEFT' is on the top ear of the knockoff.

                         LEFT FRONT:
(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Untitled-Scanned-54_-_150_dpi.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: rkm on September 02, 2014, 08:51:53 AM
The quick change thing is a shaft inside a little tube with a trapped spring at the bottom. Like a retractable ball point pen. They would weld a  retention  plate to the shaft at one end and the tube at the other, and notch one plate, leaving the plate free to slide under the bolt head.

At the tube end they welded a small hinge. To change the pads, you just push on the pin, compress the spring, swing the assembly out of the way of the pads and pull them out (with pliers...it's all hot).

The front caliper in this pic has the stock bolted on plates. The back caliper has the quick change. Therefore, this may be 2 different cars. You change front pads more often.

I could never figure out how to make the springs live in that heat without losing their tension.

Anybody know?

I tried to find these plates years ago, but no one knew much about them.

I'll bet Lynn Park knows all.

kim


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on September 02, 2014, 09:34:31 AM
The quick change thing is a shaft inside a little tube with a trapped spring at the bottom. Like a retractable ball point pen. They would weld a  retention  plate to the shaft at one end and the tube at the other, and notch one plate, leaving the plate free to slide under the bolt head.
At the tube end they welded a small hinge. To change the pads, you just push on the pin, compress the spring, swing the assembly out of the way of the pads and pull them out (with pliers...it's all hot).
The back caliper has the quick change. You change front pads more often.
I could never figure out how to make the springs live in that heat without losing their tension.
Anybody know?
I tried to find these plates years ago, but no one knew much about them.
kim

(I'm re-inserting this picture here to go with Kim's explanation above) - Thanks Kim
(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Untitled-Scanned-53_-_150_dpi.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Dmxf on September 03, 2014, 05:16:38 AM
There are a number of attributes that point to this picture with the aluminum cooling duct possibly being 3002.

This photo car was fitted with Konis vs the other image shows the Armstrongs, which was more common unless the buyer paid the extra $. Miles was in process of determining optimal coil spring car setup with 3002 and one thing he found was bringing ride height down as low as possible minimized lap times. Notice the coil spring on this photo car has pulled away from the upper spring seat in full rebound. This could be due to the shock extended length being too great (suspension does look to be hanging a little lower), but the spring may have a lower static height to minimize ride height.

I'm pretty sure 3002 had an aluminum rear wheel well front panel, not fiberglass. The rear anti sway bar was also not very common and something 3002 would have had. Most of the fasteners on this photo car are not typical of most 427 cars and look to be surplus hardware, which is how 3002 would have likely been fitted. The aluminum brake cooling duct indicates the molds for the fiberglass parts were not made yet, again what you would expect on 3002 being a prototype in development. The most interesting thing to me though is the rear upright is not a standard 427 item (notice the parting line going up the middle and shape of end). I'd like to see what 3002 has for rear uprights today.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Maxjets on September 03, 2014, 08:23:31 AM
Impressive attention to detail!


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on September 03, 2014, 08:52:06 AM
There are a number of attributes that point to this picture with the aluminum cooling duct possibly being 3002.

This photo car was fitted with Konis vs the other image shows the Armstrongs, which was more common unless the buyer paid the extra $. Miles was in process of determining optimal coil spring car setup with 3002 and one thing he found was bringing ride height down as low as possible minimized lap times. Notice the coil spring on this photo car has pulled away from the upper spring seat in full rebound. This could be due to the shock extended length being too great (suspension does look to be hanging a little lower), but the spring may have a lower static height to minimize ride height.

I'm pretty sure 3002 had an aluminum rear wheel well front panel, not fiberglass. The rear anti sway bar was also not very common and something 3002 would have had. Most of the fasteners on this photo car are not typical of most 427 cars and look to be surplus hardware, which is how 3002 would have likely been fitted. The aluminum brake cooling duct indicates the molds for the fiberglass parts were not made yet, again what you would expect on 3002 being a prototype in development. The most interesting thing to me though is the rear upright is not a standard 427 item (notice the parting line going up the middle and shape of end). I'd like to see what 3002 has for rear uprights today.

Dmxf - VERY impressive attention to detail! We are thrilled to get this much knowledgeable feedback from someone who really knows what they're looking at. Sometimes you post something and get all geeked up with great hope & expectation for reactions, and all you hear is 'crickets.' I almost thought that's where these suspension photos were heading until you knocked this one out of the park! I want to learn so much about all of George's photos because of their significance, and posting them here keeps confirming to me that it was the only place that could produce results like yours.

Stay tuned too, because we have 2 more photos of components that could be for CSX3002. And I swear that I was going to suggest the next component photo could have been for '3002, even before your response on the suspension photo. I even had a '3002 photo loaded in my album to post along with the component photo to bolster my suggestion/hope that they could have been for that car.

Thanks again, Dmxf!  Also, I have posted these suspension photos in a format that, if you click on it to save it to your files, it will be much larger than shown here, which will give you even better detail to look at.
 


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on September 03, 2014, 09:19:13 AM
And here is that next component photo that I was going to post, and the CSX3002 photo that I mentioned above.
I was going to suggest (and hope) that this was a photo of '3002's side pipes (my only clue being their white color) and see what others here thought.

This may sound a little corny, but if those ARE the side pipes for the iconic CSX3002 just laying on the floor at Shelby American, I think it's an incredible snapshot of a small moment in SA history.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Untitled-Scanned-56_-_150_dpi.jpg)

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/page_82.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Dmxf on September 03, 2014, 02:51:06 PM
I believe those are the pipes from 3002, as I have photos of the engine taken at the same time and location with the container, garbage can and inner panels visible nearby.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on September 04, 2014, 01:04:08 AM
I believe those are the pipes from 3002, as I have photos of the engine taken at the same time and location with the container, garbage can and inner panels visible nearby.

Dmxf - Is this the photo you're referring to, the one that we posted here previously? If so, I didn't go back and read the responses at the time it was posted, but I do not recall that anyone thought of the possibility that it might be CSX3002's dry sump engine at the time. But it makes perfect sense now that you bring it up. I just want to confirm if you are saying that you think this is 3002's engine?

Thanks for the pipes response above and for your input about this engine photo.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Engine_on_floor_at_LAX.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Dmxf on September 04, 2014, 04:42:52 AM
Yes, that's one. I didn't catch it in your previous posts. Among the indicators of 3002 vintage are the early fabricated steel pan before alum was available, tach drive on crank snout and the unique temp sender coming off the passenger side of the expansion tank, which is visible in the engine compartment view of 3002 at Silverstone when the car was fitted with the aluminum 390.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on September 04, 2014, 08:17:56 AM
and the unique temp sender coming off the passenger side of the expansion tank, which is visible in the engine compartment view of 3002 at Silverstone when the car was fitted with the aluminum 390.
Ahh - I see the temp sender now. Also, the '427 side oiler' in this caption is incorrect then - the Registry doesn't mention the aluminum 390 at this test and I wasn't aware of it either.
(a clarification has been made to this photo & caption - please scroll down to Reply #627)
(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Unique_temp_sender_on_rt_side_of_expansion_tank.jpg)


Among the indicators of 3002 vintage are the early fabricated steel pan before alum was available
The next photo we were going to post IS that steel oil pan:
(clarification: this pan is a wet sump Aviad pan, not the steel fabicated pan for CSX3002's dry sump engine)
(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Untitled-Scanned-57_-_150_dpi.jpg)


And I had to include the only known color photograph of Chris Amon and CSX3002 at its 1964 Silverstone test:

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/1__Chris_Amon_testing_CSX3002_at_Silverstone.JPG)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on September 04, 2014, 08:43:01 AM
   The engine in the car photo is a high riser (IMHO) and is the second engine built to those specifications. It "could" have a side oiler block due to it being an Experimental Engine Dept build as evidenced by the sticker on the valve cover. The "oval" style were used until late '67 and changed to rectangular in '68. The hood bulge is another indicator of the ( taller) high riser intake manifold. This is not the same engine pictured out of the car. That is a "light weight" with aluminum heads (med riser style), mag intake (also med riser style), and aluminum waterpump.
   Randy


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on September 04, 2014, 09:38:41 AM
Randy - I am not very big block savvy, so just to clarify, is the 'engine in the car photo' a 390 or a 427?

Photos of CSX3002 in January 1965 do not show a dry sump cap on the fender, and I have one photo of it at its first race at Green Valley, TX in Feb '65 with no dry sump cap either.
The first time the fender cap shows up is at Riverside in May of 1965.
So, does this mean that May '65 would be the first time it had a 427, or the first time that it had a dry sump 427?


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on September 04, 2014, 11:04:16 AM
    This is not an easy question. All FE's are the same size. The "390" would not have had High Riser heads "if" it was a 390 bore (4.050)  so I would say 427 in that photo. The "390" could have been a 427 bore with a 352 crank (393 ci). I wasn't there to know for sure. The dry sump system was developed after the "wet sump" system had failures so it makes sense it would have been added at the later date.
     Randy


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Dmxf on September 04, 2014, 01:32:09 PM
Randy is correct in that the engine in the Silverstone picture is a high riser, but is incorrect in stating that it is not the alum 390. The aluminum 390 was essentially a 427 highriser with sleeves that brought the displacement down to 390. The "A" in the experimental identification number on the valve cover stands for aluminum. The other aluminum 390 that was run in the flip top car of which pictures are around of it being on the dyno at SA and having the 58mm webers added had the same basic experimental number on the valve cover just with a different suffix for the sequence. The aluminum high riser head used on these engines was developed just for the Cobra program and had slightly smaller throats and seats to accommodate 390 sized valves to fit in the sleeved bore and had a few other subtle modifications (like smaller combustion chambers), but were otherwise just like the cast iron counterpart - they even had one version of the C4 part number of the standard head cast into them just with ASK numbers added on the ends.

The text below the Silverstone engine picture is also partially correct in that it was a sideoiler, just not a 427. It's likely the first side oiler FE actually run, as the earliest side oiler cast iron 427 blocks I've ever seen were dated several months after the alum 390 arrived at SA (prior to Lemans '64).


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Dmxf on September 04, 2014, 01:36:37 PM
SFM66H - That steel oil pan picture you posted is the wet sump Aviaid pan, not the fabricated steel dry sump pan in the engine photo


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on September 04, 2014, 02:40:38 PM
     Mike ,
       You are far wiser on the high riser aluminum heads than I am and I appreciate the insight as to them haveing the smaller seats like the med risers that followed them. That would certainly allow the head to be used on a small bore like 4.050. I have seen the AX numbered stickers on non aluminum engines and when I asked several former Ford Experimental Engineering guys about the different letter ( most were "R"X for Research Experimental) and they said it meant Advance Experimental same as the ASK was Advance SKetch ( or blueprint) as opposed to an SK number. I believe that block (#2) is still alive and may be the one run by Dyno Don Nicholson after a re sleeve to 4.250 bore. It is a very weak ( structurally) block and made less horsepower than an iron block engine ( as a SOHC) when Don ran it. I do not recall if the other engine you mention with the 58MM Webers was #1 or #3. Iwas told 5 blocks made it through the machining process and the rest were scrap for one reason or another. I have personally seen one other partially machined original FE block with obvious flaws that scrapped it and believe Jacky Jones or Bob Perkins has another block from a previous photo in a Mustang Monthly being held up by Donald Farr.
     Respectfully,
     Randy


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Dmxf on September 04, 2014, 03:26:43 PM
Randy - I thought it was Mose Nowland who told me the A stood for aluminum, but it may have been another Ford engineer (Mose assembled the Cobra aluminum 390s by the way). I'm aware of some cast iron block 427's released from E&F Experimental with the AX number, but they were aluminum head, balancer, water pump, etc, so I assumed that's what made them fall under the same umbrella. Either way, the 293 base number after the AX indicates the project and was also stamped into the aluminum 390 block which made the flip top Cobra famous.

Input I gathered from multiple sources seems to indicate only 2 of the aluminum 390 blocks made it to completion, number 2 was fitted with the webers at SA. The other blocks you mention I suspect are the aluminum 427 that came subsequently, as the 390 could not safely be bored big enough to accommodate 4.250 ID sleeves (I had to replace a sleeve on the remaining original alum 390).

BTW, Larry Gould drag raced the alum 427 blocks in SOHC configuration well into the 70's and I'm pretty sure he told me some years back that they would go to the same or even higher HP limit as the cast iron blocks in his nitro blown and injected application and made the same power (he actually went to them in the latter stages). The steel sleeves apparently limit the heat transfer/energy loss from the combustion area so any difference is supposedly minimal. The detriment in durability tend to show up more in high cycle fatigue, where certain problem areas of the aluminum block show up, but even those issues can be addressed, like for example due to the thinner edge distance around the main stud holes because of the inserts put in the aluminum.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on September 04, 2014, 03:41:45 PM
SFM66H - That steel oil pan picture you posted is the wet sump Aviaid pan, not the fabricated steel dry sump pan in the engine photo
Dmxf - Thanks for this clarification - I will go back into that post and make the notation in red.


Randy is correct in that the engine in the Silverstone picture is a high riser, but is incorrect in stating that it is not the alum 390. The aluminum 390 was essentially a 427 highriser with sleeves that brought the displacement down to 390. The "A" in the experimental identification number on the valve cover stands for aluminum.
The text below the Silverstone engine picture is also partially correct in that it was a sideoiler, just not a 427. It's likely the first side oiler FE actually run, as the earliest side oiler cast iron 427 blocks I've ever seen were dated several months after the alum 390 arrived at SA (prior to Lemans '64).
And thanks for this one too - I will also go into that post as well and do the correction.

MANY THANKS to you & Randy for all your help with engine explanations - You guys literally could write a book.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on September 04, 2014, 04:14:53 PM
One of our two Resident Engine Experts here on the Forum has some important information/clarification about this photograph and caption.
With his permission, I want to add it here to keep this thread informative and accurate. As always, if I'm ever informed of an error, I will gladly correct the post - just let me know.

This photograph is of CSX3002's engine during testing at Silverstone in 1964.
Dmxf - "This caption is partially correct in that it is a side oiler, just not a 427. It's an aluminum 390 that was essentially a 427 hi-riser with sleeves that brought the displacement down to 390."

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Unique_temp_sender_on_rt_side_of_expansion_tank.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on September 04, 2014, 08:01:41 PM
    And the -1-2 is "series 1" ( build sheet 1) "example 2" ( second engine built to the specification sheet for the AX 293 engine series. Same coding went for RX engines. I have many of the RX numbers for various engines and a few AX numbers. This is where terms like 335 series and 385 series engines came from. In the almost 50 years I have been "stalking" these parts and the engineers who are responsible for them , I've taken a few notes. LOL
     Randy


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on September 04, 2014, 09:58:31 PM
Randy - The 'notes you have taken' are much appreciated!
Thanks for the help of explaining to us the technical details of this oval style valve cover sticker.
I've been looking at them most of my life and had no idea what they really meant.

Kieth


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Dmxf on September 05, 2014, 06:54:44 AM
Kieth - Another interesting tid bit for some people is if you look close at the carburetor in that Silverstone engine picture the airhorn gives it away as an 850 cfm unit, not a 780 as many comp cars had.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on September 05, 2014, 07:19:39 AM
Kieth - Another interesting tid bit for some people is if you look close at the carburetor in that Silverstone engine picture the airhorn gives it away as an 850 cfm unit, not a 780 as many comp cars had.

Incredible - You have gleaned more out of that poor quality, grainy photo than I would have ever thought possible.
I have hi-res scans of all of George's glossy 8x10's, including the one of CSX3002's dry sump engine on the floor (as seen in Reply #616) - I can only imagine what you could do with those!
PM me for any of them that you want.

Thanks Dmxf!


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on September 05, 2014, 08:25:42 AM
    Keith,
      It's important to know that the engines were "designed" on paper. So when it came time to build them there was literally a book (more like a manual) on how to build them and what parts to use. A basic "laundry list" of parts was also included. I have one of these manuals for a '67 289 Trans Am engine.
If changes were made to the build ( parts wise), the "series" number would change. The highest series number I have seen is 4. The final number was the "example" number which effectivly made the entire number a serial number for each engine "build". There was another marking method , the $1 or 2,3 etc used for component parts like individual cylinder heads , manifolds , blocks etc. Even those parts had revisions and that made a part a $1A for example. Strangely this has been some of the toughest information to get as it was specific to the experimental parts divisions and I had to track down retired engineers ( from the day) that were willing to talk. Many , including Mose, Lee Morse, Bob Corn and many others "had amnesia" until I was "validated" to them by Bill Holbrook after showing him much of my work. Bill's comment was "how the hell do you know so much about what we were trying to keep secret?" That was another hour's worth of conversation. With his help and some additional ex employee contacts, I have a better picture of how things worked. Lots of politics, some good and bad according to many of them. This only scratches the surface of what I have found.
    Randy


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Dmxf on September 05, 2014, 08:28:51 AM
I do already have the engine photos in 8x10, but will look over what you have posted and message you, thanks. There's a lot more information that could be ascertained from old SA documents out there, a shame they are just locked away.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on September 05, 2014, 01:34:50 PM
Let me know if I'm correct about this, but I think the proper way to describe this 427 Cobra automatic transmission is: "a cast iron Lincoln Cruise-O-Matic 3-speed'.
I'm reposting the close-up interior photo below it here because George & I think it may be the same car - notice the doors are off in both photos.

I would like some help with this though - the number of 427 Cobras that had automatics installed at Shelby American? For some reason, the number 4 sticks in my mind.
But I only know the CSX#'s of 3 of them.

Wouldn't it be something if this is Mike Gaffney's CSX3141?

Notice the Rinshed Mason box sitting on the radiator... 

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Automatic_Trans_427_Cobra.jpg)

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Automatic_Transmission_427_Cobra_at_LAX.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on September 05, 2014, 01:42:04 PM
There's a lot more information that could be ascertained from old SA documents out there, a shame they are just locked away.

I agree with that.

Fortunately for us though, this thread was made possible only because George Watters did not abide by that (keeping them locked away).



Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Dmxf on September 06, 2014, 05:21:53 PM
Let me know if I'm correct about this, but I think the proper way to describe this 427 Cobra automatic transmission is: "a cast iron Lincoln Cruise-O-Matic 3-speed'.
I'm reposting the close-up interior photo below it here because George & I think it may be the same car - notice the doors are off in both photos.

I would like some help with this though - the number of 427 Cobras that had automatics installed at Shelby American? For some reason, the number 4 sticks in my mind.
But I only know the CSX#'s of 3 of them.

Wouldn't it be something if this is Mike Gaffney's CSX3141?


I believe those were Cruise O Matics, but I never paid much attention to any aspect of automatics. It should be easy to find pictures of those transmissions on the web to verify. I have an old note to myself that the pictures you posted are likely 3141, probably because of the time period the photos were taken, front flares on the car are appropriate for that chassis range, etc., but always welcome to other inputs.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on September 08, 2014, 07:23:38 AM
      The C6 was released for the '66 model year so it wasn't available yet.. The other problem with it was it is larger in size than the cast iron Cruise-o-matic in the main case area. The one pictures was the same specification as the '64 Thunderbolt automatics.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on September 08, 2014, 08:35:52 AM
I would like some help with this though - the number of 427 Cobras that had automatics installed at Shelby American? For some reason, the number 4 sticks in my mind.
But I only know the CSX#'s of 3 of them.

Can anyone (Ned) help with the answer to this question?

Thanks!


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on September 08, 2014, 09:44:18 AM
We have the last 6 Al Bizer photos of 5R528 at Waterford Hills, MI (circa 1966-68) and we'll post them by successive dates.
In this group is another 'flagman photo'. I really get a kick out of those 1960's flagmen!

This one is one of the very few of Al's photos that has an exact date - June 26, 1966.
George adds: "I think we know who will win this race!" 

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/5R528_at_Waterford_Hills%2C_MI_%286-26-66%29.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: KRANKY on September 08, 2014, 10:53:27 AM
Can anyone (Ned) help with the answer to this question?

Thanks!

The 427 automatic Cobras were: 3015, 3118, 3141 and 3303.

Kranky


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on September 08, 2014, 10:56:33 PM
The 427 automatic Cobras were: 3015, 3118, 3141 and 3303.
Kranky

That's the one I was missing Kranky. Thanks a lot!


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on September 09, 2014, 08:58:55 AM
Here's another 'slice of Americana' in the 1960's isn't it?

'Shelby vs Corvettes in the Midwest'

This Al Bizer photo of 5R528 at Waterford Hills, MI is dated JULY 1966.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/5R528_at_Waterford_Hills%2C_MI_%28July_1966%29_c.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on September 10, 2014, 09:25:52 AM
Here's another good photo of that flag man with the polka dot shirt - we previously posted a photo of him giving the checkered flag to Bob Acton in July of 1966.
He is receiving another one here in this photo dated SEPTEMBER 1966 - Bob is still wearing that racy flamed helmet and still winning.
Since that July photo, we can see a little evidence of action on the front of the car - a crease in the left fender, and it looks like the right headlight bezel is about to come off!
I believe those are SCCA Tech Inspection stickers above the left headlight bezel.
5R528 is still looking really nice in the early fall of 1966 though.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/5R528_at_Waterford_Hills%2C_MI_%28Sept_1966%29_a.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: car 26-JD on September 10, 2014, 10:00:55 AM
Also a contact scuff on the corner of the front "bumper"?


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on September 10, 2014, 10:09:11 AM
Yes - a hi-res scan shows that to be a tire scuff on the front apron.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on September 11, 2014, 09:19:57 AM
This one is dated MAY 27, 1967. As we've seen before, by now '528 doesn't have stripes on its front apron as it had in 1966 - but is still looking nice.
George: "I am sure Bob is pulling away from the Corvette in this shot."

You can't see it very well in this small photo, but the Corvette driver's face looks like that old black & white 1950's video clip of some guy during astronaut training or something where his face is subjected to high velocity air and his mouth & cheeks get all distorted!

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/5R528_at_Waterford_Hills%2C_MI_%285-27-67%29.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on September 12, 2014, 02:10:45 PM
Here's our second last Al Bizer photo. It's dated APRIL 28, 1968.

The Corvette looks like an actual street car - its #79 roundels are just taped on with 4 pieces of tape. I don't know how the ones on the doors didn't blow off!
Kind of humorous that it's spinning out in front of the rest room - there's probably a good punch line in there somewhere . . . .
 
(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/5R528_at_Waterford_Hills%2C_MI_%284-28-68%29.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: 6s341 on September 12, 2014, 04:12:15 PM
"If you have to stop and go...you HAVE to stop and go!"   Great shots, thanks again for sharing...! Chug a Lug


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on September 12, 2014, 09:25:41 PM
"If you have to stop and go...you HAVE to stop and go!"   Great shots, thanks again for sharing...! Chug a Lug

Craig S. - NICE!


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on September 15, 2014, 09:36:17 AM
And this last Al Bizer 8x10 is dated 'SEPTEMBER 1968'.

Of all of Al's photos, this one has the best view of the unique side exhaust mufflers that '528 used at Waterford Hills.
Here you can also see the slight damage behind the door that was repaired and painted (without side stripes) in other photos posted here.
George also points out that the plexiglass R-Model window has been replaced with a production glass window.
The mufflers and rear window were changed to comply with the Rule Book.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/5R528_at_Waterford_Hills%2C_MI_%28Sept_1968%29_d.jpg)

After this, we have some nice 5x7 and 3 1/2 x 5 color photos of 5R528 when George owned it.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on September 15, 2014, 10:22:42 AM
    I would bet this picture was the cause of the "blemish" on the left front of the apron shown in a picture previously posted on this thread.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: shlby66 on September 15, 2014, 12:18:04 PM
    I would bet this picture was the cause of the "blemish" on the left front of the apron shown in a picture previously posted on this thread.


       And, the right front fender and apron area look to have been re-arranged, as well. :o


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: 6s341 on September 15, 2014, 12:36:14 PM
Looks like he regularly had to try to avoid those fishtailing vettes... 8)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on September 16, 2014, 09:51:57 AM
George took this photo of 5R528 on Mulholland Drive in 1987, about 2 years after it was restored.
He had a California license plate and registration and he always drove it on the street.
He says: "I liked the fact that I never put any numbers etc. on the car the entire time I owned it. Looks just about how it left the factory. I wanted to draw the least amount of attention to the car as possible. I drove it to work in Hollywood almost every weekend."

He also added this experience that he had while driving it:
"By the way, I never got any tickets for speeding or noise during the 6 years that I drove the car on the street. Funny story though - I did get stopped one day on Mulholland Drive by a LAPD officer. He did not ask to see my drivers license or registration. He said that he just wanted to look at the car!!! So I let him look it over and answered a few questions. He asked me my name and thanked me and that was it. I thought!! The next afternoon I am in my kitchen and see 2 black and white LAPD cars pull up in front of my house and 3 policemen get out and start walking to my front door. I open it before the door bell rings and the officer that stopped me the previous day is standing there with the other 2. He says "Hi George, I wanted to bring a couple of friends to see your car. Can you show it to them and answer a few more questions?" They stayed for a half hour or so, thanked me and left. Pretty strange!!!!"

Pretty strange? I'd say it's pretty cool!
It struck me while reading that story, that the late 80's doesn't seem like that long ago, but when you do the math it's about a quarter of a century ago.
Which makes George's practice of driving a race car (with a license plate!) on the street sound like a story from the 'Old Days' - doesn't it?

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/5R528_on_Mulholland_Drive%2C_CA_%281987%29.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: richstang on September 16, 2014, 08:17:52 PM
We have the last 6 Al Bizer photos of 5R528 at Waterford Hills, MI (circa 1966-68) and we'll post them by successive dates.
In this group is another 'flagman photo'. I really get a kick out of those 1960's flagmen!

This one is one of the very few of Al's photos that has an exact date - June 26, 1966.
George adds: "I think we know who will win this race!" 

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/5R528_at_Waterford_Hills%2C_MI_%286-26-66%29.jpg)

SFM66H,
Can you tell what race number 5r528 has on the hood in this race photo (from your original hi-res scan)?


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: richstang on September 16, 2014, 08:36:10 PM
Here's another good photo of that flag man with the polka dot shirt - we previously posted a photo of him giving the checkered flag to Bob Acton in July of 1966.
He is receiving another one here in this photo dated SEPTEMBER 1966 - Bob is still wearing that racy flamed helmet and still winning.
Since that July photo, we can see a little evidence of action on the front of the car - a crease in the left fender, and it looks like the right headlight bezel is about to come off!
I believe those are SCCA Tech Inspection stickers above the left headlight bezel.
5R528 is still looking really nice in the early fall of 1966 though.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/5R528_at_Waterford_Hills%2C_MI_%28Sept_1966%29_a.jpg)

Looking back at all the 5r528 photos by date sequence, there is a right side view also from Sept 66 as race #74. It shows the right fender buckled which helps explain the headlight bezel partially broken off. It must have been a tougher battle that day.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: richstang on September 16, 2014, 08:53:30 PM
George took this photo of 5R528 on Mulholland Drive in 1987, about 2 years after it was restored.
He had a California license plate and registration and he always drove it on the street.
He says: "I liked the fact that I never put any numbers etc. on the car the entire time I owned it. Looks just about how it left the factory. I wanted to draw the least amount of attention to the car as possible. I drove it to work in Hollywood almost every weekend."

He also added this experience that he had while driving it:
"By the way, I never got any tickets for speeding or noise during the 6 years that I drove the car on the street. Funny story though - I did get stopped one day on Mulholland Drive by a LAPD officer. He did not ask to see my drivers license or registration. He said that he just wanted to look at the car!!! So I let him look it over and answered a few questions. He asked me my name and thanked me and that was it. I thought!! The next afternoon I am in my kitchen and see 2 black and white LAPD cars pull up in front of my house and 3 policemen get out and start walking to my front door. I open it before the door bell rings and the officer that stopped me the previous day is standing there with the other 2. He says "Hi George, I wanted to bring a couple of friends to see your car. Can you show it to them and answer a few more questions?" They stayed for a half hour or so, thanked me and left. Pretty strange!!!!"

Pretty strange? I'd say it's pretty cool!
It struck me while reading that story, that the late 80's doesn't seem like that long ago, but when you do the math it's about a quarter of a century ago.
Which makes George's practice of driving a race car (with a license plate!) on the street sound like a story from the 'Old Days' - doesn't it?

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/5R528_on_Mulholland_Drive%2C_CA_%281987%29.jpg)

I'd say that's really strange...It's bad enough to pull someone over just to look at their car (you know that feeling you get all flushed over thinking "oh sh$t") when they pull behind you. To show up at someone's house with 3 other cops, that's just wrong on so many levels.

In this picture it looks like the front tire is really stuffed in the wheel arch with major clearance issues. They had to rub the fenders, or did they?
Weren't the fronts a smaller diameter in race trim?


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on September 17, 2014, 12:15:54 AM
SFM66H,
Can you tell what race number 5r528 has on the hood in this race photo (from your original hi-res scan)?
(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/5R528_at_Waterford_Hills%2C_MI_%286-26-66%29.jpg)


richstang - It's #74 in that June 26, 1966 photo, as shown in this hi-res crop:

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/5R528_-_June_26%2C_1966_-_300_dpi_cropped.jpg)

And it was #174 by the next month, but then was back to #74 by September 1966.



Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on September 17, 2014, 12:37:27 AM
In this picture it looks like the front tire is really stuffed in the wheel arch with major clearance issues. They had to rub the fenders, or did they?
Weren't the fronts a smaller diameter in race trim?
(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/5R528_on_Mulholland_Drive%2C_CA_%281987%29.jpg)

George: "Yes, the front tires did rub the fenders on occasion. Turning sharp or any strong dip would be the worst offenders."

I am not familiar with what the R-Model tire sizes were, but someone here probably is.
The Al Bizer photos all show a pretty hefty size front tire, but they do look a bit smaller than the rears.



Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM6S087 on September 17, 2014, 01:00:42 AM
George took this photo of 5R528 on Mulholland Drive in 1987, about 2 years after it was restored.
He had a California license plate and registration and he always drove it on the street.
He says: "I liked the fact that I never put any numbers etc. on the car the entire time I owned it. Looks just about how it left the factory. I wanted to draw the least amount of attention to the car as possible. I drove it to work in Hollywood almost every weekend."

He also added this experience that he had while driving it:
"By the way, I never got any tickets for speeding or noise during the 6 years that I drove the car on the street. Funny story though - I did get stopped one day on Mulholland Drive by a LAPD officer. He did not ask to see my drivers license or registration. He said that he just wanted to look at the car!!! So I let him look it over and answered a few questions. He asked me my name and thanked me and that was it. I thought!! The next afternoon I am in my kitchen and see 2 black and white LAPD cars pull up in front of my house and 3 policemen get out and start walking to my front door. I open it before the door bell rings and the officer that stopped me the previous day is standing there with the other 2. He says "Hi George, I wanted to bring a couple of friends to see your car. Can you show it to them and answer a few more questions?" They stayed for a half hour or so, thanked me and left. Pretty strange!!!!"

Pretty strange? I'd say it's pretty cool!
It struck me while reading that story, that the late 80's doesn't seem like that long ago, but when you do the math it's about a quarter of a century ago.
Which makes George's practice of driving a race car (with a license plate!) on the street sound like a story from the 'Old Days' - doesn't it?

That story is priceless! Can’t thank you and George enough for this fantastic show-&-tell trip back in Shelby history.

Steve


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: richstang on September 17, 2014, 07:44:59 PM
(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/5R528_at_Waterford_Hills%2C_MI_%286-26-66%29.jpg)

richstang - It's #74 in that June 26, 1966 photo, as shown in this hi-res crop:

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/5R528_-_June_26%2C_1966_-_300_dpi_cropped.jpg)

And it was #174 by the next month, but then was back to #74 by September 1966.


Thanks for double checking that photo (race number #74). Even with the hi-res crop it's still tough to tell its there's a "4" after the "7". (I was thinking it might have been a "1")


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on September 17, 2014, 11:47:37 PM
Here's another one taken on Mulholland Drive on that same day in 1987 - it really shows off the front end well.
I asked George about that gap at the corner of the hood and the headlight bezel, and he directed me back to the photo with the flagman.
He said that headlight bezel damage may have taken a piece out of the hood as well...

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/5R528_on_Mulholland_Drive%2C_Calif_%281987%29.jpg)

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/5R528_at_Waterford_Hills%2C_MI_%28Sept_1966%29_a.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: terlingua11 on September 18, 2014, 07:52:47 AM
Love the color pictures. Does George have one of the backside as well?


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on September 18, 2014, 10:02:17 AM
Right now, this is the only one we have of the backside - but George says he has better ones showing the rear taken on Mulholland Drive. Will post it when I get them.
This photo was taken the day he received the car (late July 1984) from the east coast after its restoration.
It was restored by Chris Liebenberg and the mechanicals were done by Gus Zuidema.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/017_-_150_dpi.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: terlingua11 on September 18, 2014, 10:11:16 AM
Thank you. Yes, the Mulholland drive setting is great and would be greatly appreciated when George has one of those available!


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on September 18, 2014, 10:19:58 AM
Will do.

In the meantime, here's a couple of detail shots of the roll bar as received from restoration and the interior the way George always ran it, with a spare on the rear shelf.
And with a towel on the floor! (before he got black Mustang floor mats for it)

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/019_-_150_dpi.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on September 19, 2014, 08:41:50 AM
HAPPY SURPRISE BIRTHDAY GEORGE, from all of us here on the SAAC Forum!
We all want to thank you for your incredible and generous offer to share your collection with us.
It has been an experience that we will not forget.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: car 26-JD on September 19, 2014, 08:47:37 AM
HAPPY SURPRISE BIRTHDAY GEORGE, from all of us here on the SAAC Forum!
We all want to thank you for your incredible and generous offer to share your collection with us.
It has been an experience that we will not forget.


Yes, THANK YOU and Best Wishes!


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on September 19, 2014, 09:16:58 AM
And here's the dashboard after restoration in 1984:

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/014_interior_-_150_dpi.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: richstang on September 19, 2014, 12:56:03 PM
HAPPY SURPRISE BIRTHDAY GEORGE, from all of us here on the SAAC Forum!
We all want to thank you for your incredible and generous offer to share your collection with us.
It has been an experience that we will not forget.


 :cool1
Happy B Day!!! I hope you are having a fantastic day and are doing something special to celebrate.

I know many have said it before, but I can't thank you enough for sharing all of these great photos! I continue to look forward to the next post time after time.

THANK YOU!
Rich / richstang


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: 6s341 on September 19, 2014, 01:33:00 PM
+1...Happy Birthday George!


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on September 23, 2014, 12:41:01 AM
Here is 5R528 at SAAC 9 in Willow Springs, CA in 1984.
George: "I can't believe it was 30 years ago. I was giving anyone that wanted one a ride around the track. I got the car less than 2 weeks before the convention."
Isn't that incredible?

The car looks gorgeous there. If I squint to block the people out it looks like it's fresh out of the LAX Race Hangar. The low cinder block wall even reminds me of Riverside!


And who is that Young Pirate leaning on the rear window??

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/020_-_150_dpi.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: darrpo on September 23, 2014, 06:01:33 AM
Thanks for the post.  It is nice to see so many original photo's.  For the last 30+ years I had a R model part that can be observered in the interior photo.  I had taken it to many shows and laid it down on a table with parts for sale and NO ONE ever ask about it.  I just sold it at Charlotte to Pete  from Orlando Mustang after explaining just what it was. I was never going to use it and it was time to let someone else enjoy it.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on September 23, 2014, 07:32:46 AM
 While leaning on George's window Ken Young's brain was thinking, "why didn't I do this to my R Model" . Just after this life changing question, a flock of birds flew by that were emmitting  "cheap , cheap , cheap" noises. Must have been fate.  Hysterical


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on September 23, 2014, 09:04:34 AM
Thanks for the post.  It is nice to see so many original photo's.  For the last 30+ years I had a R model part that can be observered in the interior photo.  I had taken it to many shows and laid it down on a table with parts for sale and NO ONE ever ask about it.  I just sold it at Charlotte to Pete  from Orlando Mustang after explaining just what it was. I was never going to use it and it was time to let someone else enjoy it.

darrpo - Would you care to share what that part was? I'm not R-Model savvy enough to pick it out of that photo.

Thanks!


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: acman63 on September 23, 2014, 09:24:11 AM
interior shot shows R-Model unique  gauges with panel,   heater delete  radio delete,  seats,  door panels.  Only gauges  are true R-Model unique parts,  other parts were used in other cars,  not just R Models


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on September 23, 2014, 12:07:43 PM
   Rear seat latch cover???


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: darrpo on September 23, 2014, 12:16:44 PM
The shoulder harness.  It worked with the ray band belts.  Got it many years ago from don cumming


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: s2ms on September 23, 2014, 01:10:50 PM
Here's something I've never noticed before...looks like there's a plug in the hole where the lower interior quarter panel light would normally be. Is this really a plug or is the light just taped over or blacked out? If it is a plug I would suspect this is a R-Model unique part, at least on 5R528...

Dave

(http://wasaac.org/temp/5R528interior.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on September 23, 2014, 01:42:56 PM
     Dave ,
       It's a metal snap plug. I still have an NOS pair from HP Motors.
     Randy


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: acman63 on September 23, 2014, 02:53:49 PM
Randy thats a light delete plug  ;D     i have them that size if anyone needs some


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: rockhouse66 on September 24, 2014, 04:50:11 AM
Is this plug the same one used in the rear of the doors to hide the adjustment hole?  I have a picture of a car that has a white plug (body color) in that interior panel location.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on September 24, 2014, 07:12:03 AM
     No Jim ,
      Those are smaller in diameter. Same style though.
    Randy


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on September 25, 2014, 12:10:20 AM
There was a request last week for a photo of the back of 5R528 during a photo shoot on Mulholland Drive, but George hopes this one will do for now.
He doesn't think he has a rear photo from that shoot as we previously thought he did, but he's going to look thru his negatives again to be sure.
He sent me his last envelope of photos this week & I'll look thru them this weekend to make sure as well.

This photo is again at SAAC 9 in Willow Springs, CA in 1984.
It had a standard issue license plate on it at first, but he got a personalized plate for the car a few weeks after the Convention.
One plate went with the car when he sold it, but he kept this one for many years before recently parting with it - it's shown below.
I can't believe that plate was available when he requested it - he couldn't have gotten a better one!

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/021_-_150_dpi_-_resized.jpg)

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/5R528_CA_plate.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: ChicagoChris on September 25, 2014, 08:00:21 AM
Great shot of the car and the people sitting on the safety wall. Very different times.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on September 25, 2014, 08:59:08 AM
The shoulder harness.  It worked with the ray band belts.  Got it many years ago from don cumming

darrpo - Thanks for answering this.
Again, I'm not a R-Model expert - do you know if the original shoulder harnesses were made by Ray Brown?

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/016_-_150_dpi.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: richstang on September 25, 2014, 09:45:03 AM
darrpo - Thanks for answering this.
Again, I'm not a R-Model expert - do you know if the original shoulder harnesses were made by Ray Brown?

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/016_-_150_dpi.jpg)

I'm not sure how relevant this might be, but;
If they came from Don Cummings would that mean they were from 5r103 (also known as the Walt Hanes R model)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Rodster-500 on September 25, 2014, 06:19:40 PM
There was a request last week for a photo of the back of 5R528 during a photo shoot on Mulholland Drive, but George hopes this one will do for now.
He doesn't think he has a rear photo from that shoot as we previously thought he did, but he's going to look thru his negatives again to be sure.
He sent me his last envelope of photos this week & I'll look thru them this weekend to make sure as well.

This photo is again at SAAC 9 in Willow Springs, CA in 1984.
It had a standard issue license plate on it at first, but he got a personalized plate for the car a few weeks after the Convention.
One plate went with the car when he sold it, but he kept this one for many years before recently parting with it - it's shown below.
I can't believe that plate was available when he requested it - he couldn't have gotten a better one!



Same car....


(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-aFBGtT3eYKU/UeNncy4bhTI/AAAAAAAAEVw/2lwSkGaiGi0/s640/1984_SAAC_9_036.jpg)

(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-l0oLeL6ddLc/UeNnf0cF3nI/AAAAAAAAEWI/u9dVBC53eTw/s640/1984_SAAC_9_004.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: darrpo on September 25, 2014, 07:52:43 PM
I do not remember as too which car it came from. While visiting his shop in the late 70's he had two or three  65  Shelby's in the shop plus a cobra and a white gt40. There was lots of used parts lying around.  The shoulder harness was with a lot of old used parts I think he was getting rid of.  I picked up the belt and gave him a few bucks for it.  You could see where a tag had been on the belt but nothing was left of it.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on September 26, 2014, 01:33:08 AM
Here's a change of pace - George had this GT40 photo in his collection. He doesn't remember where he got it, but it is definitely an original photograph.
Even though I have quite extensive GT40 files, I did not have a photo of this car at this race.

It's P/1075 at Daytona 1968 in the iconic Gulf Team colors of Powder Blue with a Marigold stripe.
Because it was the Gulf Team's #1 car it always wore the wide flared nose stripe.
 
And below the car photograph is the backside of it - the writing is interesting but it is not George's.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/P-1075_at_Daytona_1968.jpg)

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Back_of_P-1075_at_Daytona_1968_photo.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: propayne on September 26, 2014, 06:37:03 AM
^^^ Most beautiful automobile design ever - IMHO.

Picture was probably going into a 3 column publication and needed to be reduced 80% to fit.

- Phillip


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on September 26, 2014, 07:27:09 AM
  Westlake heads as the carbs are "canted". Beautiful shot!


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on September 26, 2014, 08:46:26 AM
^^^ Most beautiful automobile design ever  - IMHO.

Picture was probably going into a 3 column publication and needed to be reduced 80% to fit.
- Phillip

I could not agree more with that.

I still remenber as a kid in school, every time I was in study hall I would be doodling its profile on a sketchpad rather than studying - trying to get it down perfectly.
And as an adult, whenever I daydream about automotive shapes, it always comes back to the GT40.

Your knowledge of what that writing on the back of the photo means was very interesting - Thanks!


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM6S087 on October 02, 2014, 08:47:16 PM
Kieth, did you take a well-deserved vacation? I don’t post often, but I visit this topic religiously to see what’s new. Nothing in almost a week. You didn’t get sick did you?

Steve


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on October 03, 2014, 02:30:09 PM
No Steve, I'm still here and I'm OK!

We've just been trying to piece together some history information details on a couple of photos of 5R528 that were taken in the 1970's.
That has been accomplished and I will be posting the first one in a bit here...


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: 06 GT on October 03, 2014, 03:31:30 PM
Writing on the back looks like it was announcing a mall show where the car would be featured. Now we need to find where???


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on October 04, 2014, 09:27:44 AM
George recently sent me the last of his collection, and in it were a few photos of 5R528 in the 1970's.

He says about these photos: "I got these pictures right after I purchased 528 in 1982 but can't remember who took them or who sent them to me. I believe they were taken around 1975, a few years after Bob Acton had sold the car. The exterior has had some body work done and a partial paint job but the interior is still all original."
(and about the still all original interior, wait till you see the photo of all of the original Tech Inspection stickers still on the roll bar from the 1960's!)

Isn't this vintage photo how we recall things in the 70's? An 'old race car' in a small, one car garage in an ordinary neighborhood? Today, this seems just incredible to us!
In trying to nail down the location and the owner when photographed here, George enlisted the help of Howard Pardee who contacted Jeff Burgy.

Jeff recalls: "It may be Jerry Harvey's place in Royal Oak, which was a small grey house on a side street. It appears the doors on the garage are "carriage house style" and opened by swinging out instead of swinging or rolling up. It looks like the doors are gray, and I recall Harvey's house in Royal Oak as gray, and his garage (which I was never in) in that area was probably a very small one car garage. I saw the car with Jerry Harvey at Acton's Plumbing warehouse - in an open garage stall in Plymouth, MI, and the next time I saw it was at Whitmore's house in Farmington, MI, when he started to outline to me his plans to hack it up and turn it into a drag car. I begged him not to, and somehow, Jerry Harvey was able to talk him out of the car completely. So, even though I'm not sure, my guess is Jerry Harvey's garage in Royal Oak."
(Jerry Harvey bought the car from John Whitmore on 6/6/74)

"Hack it up and turn it into a drag car"?  Thanks from all of us for preventing that, Jeff!

George & I want to thank Howard and Jeff for their help with these photos - and George hopes that someone here may recall who took them or who sent them to him.
If Howard's inquiries turn up the photographer's name we'll edit the post and give them credit here.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/020_-_150_dpi~0.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: richstang on October 05, 2014, 07:07:51 AM
528 seems to be it great shape for being nearly 9 years old in this mid 70's photo. It appears the headlights were replaced with aluminum filler panels. This garage photo certainly has an average neighborhood feel. I'm cringing just looking at the spikey aerator tool, snow shovel, and other yard tools to the right.

It was lucky indeed, that Jerry Harvey pried it away from John Whitmore before any hacking took place. I don't even want to think about all the original sheet metal getting cut and drilled out for lightening the car or putting in slicks, etc.

thanks for sharing


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on October 05, 2014, 08:58:29 AM
   Not all of "us" drag racers do that. 6S477 is proof.  Except for radiused rear wheel openings ( which 528 already had) 477 is totally original. I too am happy 528 didn't go to the drags because that preserved it's rich history!
    Randy


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on October 06, 2014, 11:49:05 PM
Here's the photo of 528's original interior and the Tech Inspection stickers that are still on the roll bar from the 1960's!
Check out the head rest support that appears to have been added to the roll bar.
Hi-res scans show a bead of weld along the bottom and that's apparently what happened to the stickers in that area, they look like they've been ground off to prep for the weld.
Not sure what the duct tape may have been used for though...

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/200_dpi_-_b.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on October 08, 2014, 08:22:58 AM
And here's the last vintage photo we have of 5R528, circa 1975.

About it, George says: "When I purchased the car in 1982 it had 1849 miles. As we see in the picture the odometer is in the process of turning over to 1850 miles. It had not been driven from the time this picture was taken in the 1970's till the time I bought it. The interior was all original including the gauges and steering wheel etc. By the way the wheel did not have a plastic Cobra center cap. I had a extra original one that I used. You will notice it in the after restoration pictures that we have posted. When I sold the car in 1988 I kept it on the wheel so the subsequent owner got it. I just always liked the way it looked."

Isn't that amazing, that this photo just happens to show the odometer at 1849.5 miles?
All of the original R-Model gauges, the original radio block-off plate and the original steering wheel installed by Shelby American at LAX (which looks in excellent shape) - incredible.
Also note the removed cigarette lighter and glove box door. 

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/200_dpi_-_d.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: 427heaven on October 09, 2014, 07:21:06 AM
Great shots. I am sure that the duct tape was to hold some padding to the headsupport or to prevent clunking and scratching of a nice painted helmet.Times have sure changed havent they? No cages,containment seats,Hans device, arm restraints, window nets, etc. We lost many and hurt many more just because we were not at that safety level yet.But the raw simplistic race car shines as a beacon of what was the king of the hill, back in the day. :cool1


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on October 09, 2014, 08:38:37 AM
Great shots. I am sure that the duct tape was to hold some padding to the headsupport or to prevent clunking and scratching of a nice painted helmet.Times have sure changed havent they? No cages,containment seats,Hans device, arm restraints, window nets, etc. We lost many and hurt many more just because we were not at that safety level yet. But the raw simplistic race car shines as a beacon of what was the king of the hill, back in the day. :cool1  

Well done - Nicely said, 427heaven!


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: richstang on October 09, 2014, 08:57:55 AM
Great shots. I am sure that the duct tape was to hold some padding to the headsupport or to prevent clunking and scratching of a nice painted helmet.Times have sure changed havent they? No cages,containment seats,Hans device, arm restraints, window nets, etc. We lost many and hurt many more just because we were not at that safety level yet.But the raw simplistic race car shines as a beacon of what was the king of the hill, back in the day. :cool1
That's what I was thinking.

Would anyone know what the red button / light is in the center of the gauges on the dash. That can't be for the horn, can it?


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on October 09, 2014, 09:13:11 AM
richstang - that's a good question, I'm looking forward to the answer too.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Alan on October 09, 2014, 09:17:55 AM

Would anyone know what the red button / light is in the center of the gauges on the dash. That can't be for the horn, can it?

Rev warning?


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: richstang on October 09, 2014, 09:21:53 AM
Rev warning?

That is a good guess, but was that technology available back then? (Sorry, it's before my time)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on October 09, 2014, 09:25:25 AM
Well, this photo is a fitting end to the George Watters Collection - at least as far as the photos that he has sent to me.

It's at the SAAC 9 Evening Program in Anaheim, Calif in August 1984.
That's George with 5R528 - Carroll with CSX2300 - George Stauffer with GT/___ - Art Foley with CSX3020.
That's a great photo, well done George - and we can't believe it was 30 years ago already!

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/SAAC_9_-_Anaheim%2C_CA_-_1984.jpg)

We could use some help with George Stauffer's GT40 ID though, and I believe the red Cobra owner's name and CSX# are correct - if not and somebody says so, I'll edit this post.



Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: richstang on October 09, 2014, 09:38:59 AM
I think the Ford GT could be 1083.

It's sad to hear that this is the last photo added to the GWC collection. What a wonderful, educational, journey.

THANK YOU George and Kieth for all the effort and time you both put into this thread.

If I could add a sound bite to my post it would be a thunderous applause!


 Chug a Lug


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on October 09, 2014, 10:25:14 AM
Would anyone know what the red button / light is in the center of the gauges on the dash. That can't be for the horn, can it?

George is working on the red button question, and he reminded me of a photo that I have that shows it and the horn switch very well.
I'll post it after work tonite to show you.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on October 09, 2014, 10:52:13 AM
   Without seeing the engine compartment , I would say low oil pressure light. I could be wrong.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: shelrace on October 09, 2014, 02:38:26 PM
+1 on the low oil pressure light.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Dan Case on October 09, 2014, 03:08:30 PM
While we are speculating, 'you just tossed the fan belt'.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: shelrace on October 09, 2014, 03:30:35 PM
Ouch, there goes the water temp!


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on October 09, 2014, 03:34:44 PM
   Oh well , lost another Dayco 41-0-3.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: shelrace on October 09, 2014, 03:40:02 PM
What is the light on the opposite side of the tach, possibly a green light (same shape as the red one) for?


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on October 09, 2014, 11:24:00 PM
Would anyone know what the red button / light is in the center of the gauges on the dash. That can't be for the horn, can it?

George explains the 3 colored lights below the gauges (from left to right):
Blue - Hi Beams On        Red - Ignition On        Green - Turn Signals On

And this angle shows the horn switch above the radio block off plate very well.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/022_-_180_dpi.jpg)



Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: richstang on October 10, 2014, 08:43:03 AM
Thanks George (and Kieth)! That clears up all those questions. I suppose they were all required equipment for street legal registration in CA at the time.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on October 10, 2014, 09:26:51 AM
    As produced , the R Model was not street legal. Back them Barney Fife would give you a ticket for no bumpers and no mufflers!


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on October 10, 2014, 09:48:44 AM

It's sad to hear that this is the last photo added to the GWC collection. What a wonderful, educational, journey.

THANK YOU George and Kieth for all the effort and time you both put into this thread.

If I could add a sound bite to my post it would be a thunderous applause!


Thanks for the kind words Rich.

You know, as I begin the process of gathering up all of George's collection to return it to him, something really hits me - there's a lot of material in this thread - I mean A LOT!
That became quite apparent when I was going back into the thread recently, looking for something, and wow - I mean, I kept going and going . . .
We have covered a lot of ground over the last several months - a lot of Shelby American History.
And we have seen some new things because of it and have learned some new things too.
I'm really glad that it's all here to be preserved for the future and to be accessible to all.

Thank you for all your help George, and Thanks for trusting me with your collection.

Kieth


___________________________________________________________________________
Now, to get started on that 'to do' list that my wife has been generating since April . . . .  


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on October 10, 2014, 10:04:10 AM
+1 This post has been a real eyeopener LOL! THANK YOU  to ALL involved!
       Randy


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on October 10, 2014, 12:53:48 PM
Randy - You're a big reason why we have learned new things on this thread.
           Thanks for all your contributions, especially all the help with identifying the Riverside locations!

            Kieth


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: 6s341 on October 10, 2014, 05:01:02 PM
Great thread, thanks again Kieth and George!   Chug a Lug


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on October 17, 2014, 12:35:51 AM

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Ken_Miles_with_5R001_at_Riverside.jpg)
I've had this great color photo of Ken Miles at Riverside with 5R001 for a long time, but always wanted to know the date & the event.
Ken is talking with Shelby American Vice President James McLean while Jerry Schwarz works on the car as Ken's son Peter looks on. That's Chuck Cantwell behind the car.

Then, this rare b&w view of 5R001 at Riverside turns up in George's photos (the 'unusual nose feature' photo) that Kranky dated as 10/30/65.
Also very unusual in the b&w photo is the position of the #36 on the doors - in all other photos the numbers are more in the middle of the doors.
Then richstang noted the position of the B on the door in the color photo and mentioned that the only time Ken drove 5R001 was at Riverside on 10/30/65!
While we are speculating why the #36 is not yet on the doors in the color photo, it seems quite clear that the color photo was taken that weekend at Riverside.
So the coincidence of all these elements coming together to add some info to the color photo is what keeps me interested in learning about Shelby American history!
(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/5R001_at_Riverside.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on October 17, 2014, 09:23:16 PM
This photo found on the internet shows the drivers door of 5R001 at Riverside on 10/30/65 with Ken Miles driving it, after the #36 has been put on the door.
It's a great follow up to the photo below it that shows Ken standing by the door before the number was applied.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/a.JPG)
(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Ken_Miles_with_5R001_at_Riverside.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on October 24, 2014, 08:13:02 AM
George was recently asking me about the June 1965 issue of Mechanix Illustrated, had I seen it, do I have it, etc.
I said that I had seen photos of the cover on the internet, but no, I did not have it and had never been able to read it elsewhere either.
I was curious why he was asking about this issue and he said because the cars shown on the cover were tested at Riverside in the article, and because we both like anything to do with Riverside so much, was why he was asking about it.
I told him that I had always been intrigued with this issue because the road tests described on the cover include the 427 Cobra, but the Cobra ON the cover is a 289, the Factory Team USRRC roadster, CSX2513 - so I had always been wondering about that.
He said, "Well, I have an extra issue and I want you to have it." There was no saying no to him either, and he just sent it to me! Thanks George!

Well, as usual, my first thoughts were to share it here on the Forum - I'll be scanning the article & photos and will do so in the near future.
You may have seen my comments on the National Speed Sport News thread about how the style of writing done in those days just cracks me up so much.
And this June 1965 issue follows the same style. Here's just one sentence from the article:

"As anyone brighter than a rusty spike must know, the Ford Motor Co. has gone out like Hannibal with an electric prodder to conquer the motor-sports world."


How could reading an article written like that not be good? And the photos are great too! Stay tuned . . .

(I cropped the distracting bottom of the cover off here, just to make it a more appealing photo to post) 
(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/MI_-_June_1965_-_cropped.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM6S087 on October 24, 2014, 12:29:55 PM
YEE HA!

You've got me hanging on the edge of my seat waiting for the next post. Keep 'em coming.

Steve


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Doug C on October 24, 2014, 01:40:35 PM
YEE HA!

You've got me hanging on the edge of my seat waiting for the next post. Keep 'em coming.

Steve

Me too


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: acman63 on October 25, 2014, 06:07:19 PM
He's too busy looking through all the cool NSSN


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM6S087 on October 25, 2014, 10:56:23 PM
He's too busy looking through all the cool NSSN

Yes. Thanks to the "couple" of issues you recently dropped off for him to scan & post. Thanks for being so generous in sharing those! I'm keeping up with that thread too.

Steve


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on October 29, 2014, 10:10:58 AM
Here's the cropped index of the Mechanix Illustrated that George sent to me, and the intro page to the article:

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Index.jpg)

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/pg_59.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on November 03, 2014, 10:45:21 AM
Here is the Cobra portion of this article, the write up on the new 427 Cobra from Shelby American, but keep in mind that the Cobra photos shown here are of CSX2513.
In those days, 3 month lead times were about normal for magazine publications, which puts McCahill's article written around March of '65, so maybe there just weren't any 427's to photograph yet.

Be sure to read Uncle Tom's last paragraph of the article on page 140 . . .   

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/pg_60_%28Cobra%29.jpg)

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/pg_61_%28Cobra%29.jpg)

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/pgs_138___139_%28Cobra%29.jpg)

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/pg_140_%28Cobra%29.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on November 04, 2014, 09:33:38 AM
Randy - You're a big reason why we have learned new things on this thread.
           Thanks for all your contributions, especially all the help with identifying the Riverside locations!
            Kieth

Here's an example of Randy's help - I'm now able to identify this photo as turn 9 at Riverside:

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/pg_60_crop.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on November 04, 2014, 11:28:36 AM
     It's been my pleasure to participate , and I've learned a thing or two as well ( to say the least!).
        Thank you and George for making it happen,
           Randy


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on November 06, 2014, 10:17:59 AM
And here's the NEW MUSTANG GT 350 part of this article - where it was tested at Riverside.

Its abilities there are compared with a gazelle AND a shark.   ;D

Be aware though, the competition version IS $1,200 to $1,500 more than the street version.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/pg_64_%28GT350%29.jpg)

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/pg_65_%28GT350%29.jpg)

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/pg_144_%28GT350%29.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on November 19, 2014, 11:16:08 AM
When I tried to continue posting, I received a message that I have accumulated my allotment of 175000K of Disk Space on this Forum.

I know that if I delete files from My Gallery to create some room, they will be deleted from the Boards they are in too, and I don't want to do that - all you'll see then is a small box with a red 'X' in it instead of a photo.

So I've PM'd the Moderator to see if creating a different, yet similar User Name (say SFM66H 2, for example) may allow me to continue, or if an exception can be made to increase my allotment size.

Will keep you posted - Hopefully!



Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Maxjets on November 19, 2014, 11:21:28 AM
If there was ever a thread and a poster that should be allowed to increase it would be this one and SFM66H.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on November 19, 2014, 11:24:23 AM
Thanks Maxjets!


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on December 02, 2014, 09:49:56 AM
When I tried to continue posting, I received a message that I have accumulated my allotment of 175000K of Disk Space on this Forum.

I know that if I delete files from My Gallery to create some room, they will be deleted from the Boards they are in too, and I don't want to do that - all you'll see then is a small box with a red 'X' in it instead of a photo.

So I've PM'd the Moderator to see if creating a different, yet similar User Name (say SFM66H 2, for example) may allow me to continue, or if an exception can be made to increase my allotment size.

Will keep you posted - Hopefully!

Well, thanks to acman63 and Moderator Ron, this issue has been fixed and I should be back up & running now. Nothing should have changed and it should be 'business as usual'.
Thanks for allowing me to continue to post Shelby American History photos - it's a privilege.

Kieth


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: KYSHELBYGT350 on December 02, 2014, 04:21:49 PM
Thank you Keith for posting all of this history, as a Shelby newbie I've read this several times and have saved the photos on my I pad. Incredible history that could have been lost.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on January 08, 2015, 11:26:45 AM
George is back!

Check out these beautiful 1967 George Bartell posters that he finally dug out of storage and sent me a photo of, and wait till you hear his story about them:

"I have had them both since the 1970's. I can't remember who I bought them from, but it was someone in the Los Angeles area and he did tell me that he got them both from a guy that had worked at Hi-Performance Motors on Sepulveda Blvd. right before they closed. He further said that they both had been hanging up in the interior. I would guess that I bought them around 1977 or 1978 I think. At the time, Hi-Performance Motors was just a memory and did not have the mystique it has now, so I really believe they were connected to HPM as there was no reason to lie about it. I don't think many members at that time even knew about the place."

He adds that it's possible that many of the Forum members, and especially the '67 owners, may not have even seen the G.T.350/G.T500 poster before, as it is a lot more rare than the COBRA poster, and that both of them do not come up for sale very often. He says they are about 22 x 26 in size.

Well, I had never seen THE ROAD CARS poster before, and it's a knockout!

Thanks George!





(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Actual_posters_from_HPM_2_%28George_Watters%29.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: propayne on January 08, 2015, 12:57:06 PM
I have always loved those illustrations!

- Phillip


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Coralsnake on January 08, 2015, 12:57:33 PM
I think Vern just fainted....MEDIC!!!!!


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: car 26-JD on January 08, 2015, 01:03:52 PM
I have always loved those illustrations!

- Phillip

Yes, me too


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Rodney T on January 08, 2015, 01:51:28 PM
  Seems it is the same artist that did the Owners manual cover illustration on the 67 owners manual.  AND the illustration from the record you got in the original issue AMT 68 Shelby model kit.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: terlingua11 on January 08, 2015, 02:38:42 PM
My first son is available to George in trade for the posters in case he's interested!  :o


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: vernonestes on January 08, 2015, 03:09:08 PM
I think Vern just fainted....MEDIC!!!!!

This is the "office" wall.

(http://i778.photobucket.com/albums/yy64/vernonestes/image12_zpse4ae4d30.jpg)

I have tried many a time to beg George out of his Road Cars poster but he continues to relentlessly torture me with it from time to time.  George does have a bit of an evil side to him, especially when it comes to abusing mentally unstable literature hounds like myself.  Hysterical

My 427 Cobra poster was obtained from the son of the founding vice president of COCOA. Hi Performance Motors was the COCOA's clubhouse for the time that the dealership was open (most people arent aware that COCOA was around that early). He also said it was obtained from HPM. The only place the road cars poster and the 427 Cobra poster were sold publicly was an ad that was run just once in Car and Driver in 1967. Other than that, they were hung in dealerships..so they are commonly known as "Dealer posters" even though they could have been bought (at least they ran in ad) in C&D.  They have repopped the 427 poster but the repop isnt very good, thankfully. When I purchased my poster from the previous owner it came in an original Shelby American labelled tube and had 5 1965 World Champ Posters and 4 1966 FIA GT40 WOrld Champ Posters rolled up with it. I about fell over.

Best regards,
Vern


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: 06 GT on January 08, 2015, 05:34:56 PM
......founding vice president of COCOA. Hi Performance Motors was the COCOA's clubhouse for the time that the dealership was open (most people arent aware that COCOA was around that early). ..

It started shortly after the Cobra was introduced. It truly was COBRA OWNERS CLUB of America. When the GT350 joined the linep they wern't allowed membership. That came later. Two COCOAs still exist. The original club ended up meeting at Galpin Ford for many years. It's now usually refered to as Lynn Parks group and they host two weekends at Willow Springs each year. The other is Cobra Owners Club of Orange County. They were an original chapter of COCOA. They hold monthly meetings and host the Concours de Nice.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Dkutz on January 09, 2015, 10:06:34 AM
Wow just spent two days going through this thread!  WOW!!!  Awesome pictures awesome history.  I don't own a Shelby, but all these pictures make me want one even more!  Thanks for sharing!! 

Dieter


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: propayne on January 09, 2015, 12:00:42 PM
Yes, me too

I know I'm biased, but I find illustrations to be more impactful than photographs.

Bartell is one of the all-time greats, that's for sure.

- Phillip


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on January 09, 2015, 02:41:33 PM
It started shortly after the Cobra was introduced. It truly was COBRA OWNERS CLUB of America. When the GT350 joined the linep they wern't allowed membership. That came later. Two COCOAs still exist. The original club ended up meeting at Galpin Ford for many years. It's now usually refered to as Lynn Parks group and they host two weekends at Willow Springs each year. The other is Cobra Owners Club of Orange County. They were an original chapter of COCOA. They hold monthly meetings and host the Concours de Nice.

        COCOA "OC" was created by myself and a couple of other COCOA members who struggled to get from OC to LA (60miles) for weeknight meetings and then head home late at night. The "original" president was TV actor Paul Petersen of the "Donna Reed" show. I wa the founding president of the OC group , now 40 years old.
     Randy


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on January 23, 2015, 02:17:29 AM
George liked this photo of Bob Johnson's USRRC Cobra (CSX2558) at LAX (I had posted it on the National Speed Sport News thread) and as we do, we then went to work identifying the location at LAX where it was taken.

What we came up with, is that the inset Cobra photo was taken facing west, and that the truck is facing east.
This aerial photo was also taken facing east, so the truck would have been facing away from us in this view.
The red line connects the same window seen in both photos, that being the northwest corner of the Race Shop hangar.

Hey, we just really like LAX photos & details!

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Cobra_at_LAX_photo_location.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: alexgt350h on January 23, 2015, 05:50:33 AM
Love to see shots of LAX back in the day! Are there any photos of these buildings taken recently?
 Would like to see what it looks like today .
Brent


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: camp upshur on January 23, 2015, 02:30:21 PM


'Read and Weep':

http://www.nca.aero/e/service/facilities/america_lax.html




Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on January 23, 2015, 03:27:05 PM
Love to see shots of LAX back in the day! Are there any photos of these buildings taken recently?
 Would like to see what it looks like today .
Brent

Brent - Here you go, a Google Earth image from 2014. Both original hangars are still standing, as you can see.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/LAX_in_2014.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on January 25, 2015, 12:58:47 PM
CHECK THIS OUT!
George just found this photo on eBay when he was looking for (of all things) some baseball pictures!
He said it was in a group of approx. 60 miscellaneous photos, and that he had never seen this shot before.

What a find - it's a rarely seen photo of Carroll Shelby in a USRRC Team Car, and the caption is a really nice extra too.
The Cobra is CSX2513 (the CS Driving School car) and this photo was taken at the Carter Avenue shop.
It's the same car that was on the cover of the June 1965 issue of Mechanix Illustrated.

What a GREAT photo to share here - Thanks George!

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/CSX2513_at_3221_Carter_Avenue.jpg)

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/MI_-_June_1965_-_cropped.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gcptc on May 31, 2015, 01:17:58 PM
I just picked up 2 of the 1968 postcards. Great picture


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on November 11, 2015, 12:10:54 AM
I know there's another thread here about the passing of George Barris, but I wanted to post this here in the George Watters Collection because it's a personal story from George.
In his own words:

"George Barris lived in Encino, which is the town I grew up in and basically lived in until we moved to Cambria 2 years ago. My parents built our house there in 1956. Anyway, when I worked at Disney Studios (up to 4 years ago) I would on occasion see George driving to work every few months. His shop, Barris Kustom, is located in North Hollywood (Toluca Lake) and to get there it is the same freeway I took every morning. The shop I would say is about 3 or 4 miles from Disney Studios in Burbank. He was always driving some type of custom car but they always had Gold bumpers, wheels and trim. Like a Cadillac or something like that. Nothing that I would want at all. The last couple of years that I saw him he had a Metallic metal flake Gold Prius that you could see for 10 miles!!! Gold wheels and gull wing doors. Very shiny to boot!!

So one day about 2 years ago I went shopping at Gelson’s Market in Encino, and I saw his car in the parking lot. Inside the store I saw him standing in one of the aisles. He had on a bright gold Barris Kustom Cars jacket and his trademark Elvis type sun glasses. So I walked up to him and introduced myself.  He was very nice and we talked for about 10 minutes. I told him that I had the book that was published about all of the cars and stars that he had customized cars for. I also said that I had stopped at his shop for many years and looked thru the front glass at his showroom but never went in (the doors are always locked). So he pulls out his wallet and says that the next time I stop by, just show anyone the special business card that he handed me and I would always be welcome. It was his Custom Gold Card he said!! After he handed it to me, he asked if he could autograph it and I said that would be great so he personalized it to me. We made some small talk about the Batmobile and a couple of other cars and I told him that I was a longtime Shelby owner and had a ‘66 GT 350. He said, "Carroll’s cars are worth a lot of money and we had been friends for a long time.” He also said that he had "done some work on Shelby Mustangs and painted a couple of Cobras.” I think that one of the ones he painted was an automatic 427 Cobra that I test drove from a Exotic car lot on Sunset Blvd. in 1973. I remember it was a metal flake color and I think George had painted it. I might be wrong but I do remember hearing this at the time. I think it was the car that had been owned by the Astronaut Scott Carpenter. Again not sure. So George and I said good bye and he said he enjoyed talking.

In the last couple of years I maybe saw his Prius 4 or 5 times around Encino. The last couple of times I saw him he had someone else driving and he was in the passenger seat. So that is my story. I am really glad I got to meet and talk with him. He sure was nice and really seemed to enjoy our conversation."

George


And here's a photo that a friend of George's took of Barris about Oct 25, 2015:

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/George_Barris_%2810-25-15%29_b.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: propayne on November 11, 2015, 05:17:52 AM
That's a great story.

To an illustrator/graphic artist like myself - to work at Disney and live in the same neighborhood as George Barris - I mean, how cool is that?!!  Chug a Lug

Phillip


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Brant on November 11, 2015, 06:54:32 AM
Great story.  Thanks to George for sharing, and thank you, Kieth for posting!


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on January 07, 2016, 12:25:46 AM
George recently reminded me of this photo taken at LAX before Shelby American moved into it in May 1965.
The photo is from Colin Comer's 2009 book, "The Complete Book Of Shelby Automobiles."

It caught his attention again because we have long tried to find out what the purpose of that little 'shack' is, that's out in the middle of the wide open space on this side of the blast wall.

He says about this photo, "It's great to be able to see so much of the detail of the property that we might have missed when the pictures we usually see have all of the cars etc. parked there. Maybe someone will have a idea what the small “shack” was used for, but I still think it might have been used for electricity switches or something to do with power for the exterior lights or something like that. This picture is also great reference for all of the different exterior property surfaces (cement, cement squares and black top, etc.) that we always see the cars parked on in the factory pictures. I actually think this is one of my favorite exterior factory shots. It is a great reference for the locations of the exterior pictures that were taken in the day."

I agree with him about the significance of this photo. It is indeed 'the calm before the storm.'

(it's larger and clearer when you right click it & save it):                                                                                                  

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/SAI_moved_into_this_facility_at_LAX_in_May_1965.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: rkm on January 07, 2016, 06:59:33 AM
That little shack was so Tweedy could take a dump!


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on July 22, 2016, 01:06:21 AM
George just mailed me this vintage drawing of the new '67 Shelby. He's had it since 1966 and says this about it:

"I cut it out of the Los Angeles Times in Oct 1966. There was an article about the 1967 GT350 and 1967 GT500 but I did not keep the article, I just cut out the drawing. This was the first time I saw what the new '67 Shelby’s looked like."

I just think it's really neat that it came from a Los Angeles paper, almost 50 years ago:

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/From_the_LA_Times%2C_Oct_1966_%28George_Watters%29.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: 2112 on July 22, 2016, 08:15:10 AM
That is pretty good representation of the real McCoy. Line drawing like that is an extinct art form.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: propayne on July 22, 2016, 05:14:53 PM
That is pretty good representation of the real McCoy. Line drawing like that is an extinct art form.

Love it! Notice the upper scoop lights!

- Phillip


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: richstang on July 22, 2016, 07:10:29 PM
George just mailed me this vintage drawing of the new '67 Shelby. He's had it since 1966 and says this about it:

"I cut it out of the Los Angeles Times in Oct 1966. There was an article about the 1967 GT350 and 1967 GT500 but I did not keep the article, I just cut out the drawing. This was the first time I saw what the new '67 Shelby’s looked like."

I just think it's really neat that it came from a Los Angeles paper, almost 50 years ago:

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/From_the_LA_Times%2C_Oct_1966_%28George_Watters%29.jpg)

That is just neat as H#!!.
Nice catch on the upper scoop light propayne. I missed that on my first glance...too busy looking at the reflections and the GT500 lettering.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: 06 GT on July 22, 2016, 08:45:24 PM
to work at Disney and live in the same neighborhood as George Barris
As Ken Young would say - It's Southern California. Ken always likes driving around my block when he's in SoCal. Unrestored rust free 57 Tbird parked in a guys driveway. Guy around the corner builds chopped rat rod trucks. Guy up the block has an 8 second 69 Camaro - also his 69 COPO Camaro he and a partner got new from Chevy and campainged for a couple years. A little further up the block another guy with a driveway full of Mustangs. At the end of the street a girl with her off road race truck and new Raptor. Across from her is a guy with 3 Indy pace cars all GM. 4 familes have off road buggies. Don Blair of speed shop fame is a block away. He passed away but his son moved in and has kept all his cars and parts together. Yep just a typical SoCal neighborhood.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on July 25, 2016, 08:55:58 AM
Love it! Notice the upper scoop lights!

- Phillip

We did!
George & I discussed that as soon as I received it, because it's a drawing of an early production car.

Upper scoop lights are awesome...


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: 557 on July 25, 2016, 09:51:28 AM
We did!
George & I discussed that as soon as I received it, because it's a drawing of an early production car.

Upper scoop lights are awesome...yeah except the side stripes indicate a gt500.if I am not mistaken all the early scoop light production cars were 350s ....right?.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: richstang on July 25, 2016, 10:41:40 AM
At least one of the early cars was a GT500, #0100, the red fastback used in many of the period magazines.

There are at least 2 other GT500's that have upper scoop lights (#300 range), but we have to wonder if they came from the factory that way.
They were January '67 SA completion builds.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: 557 on July 25, 2016, 11:05:48 AM
At least one of the early cars was a GT500, #0100, the red fastback used in many of the period magazines.

There are at least 2 other GT500's that have upper scoop lights (#300 range), but we have to wonder if they came from the factory that way.
They were January '67 SA completion builds.i meant production cars.....wasn't the red car actually the gt500 prototype?.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: richstang on July 25, 2016, 11:31:19 AM
I think #0100 is considered production, but noted as an engineering car.

the other GT500s that have the upper scoop lights are;
#0314 (1/12/67) I think the current owner questioned if they were added by a previous owner or not
#0339 (1/16/67)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on July 26, 2016, 09:37:44 AM
Here's another 50 year old piece of original Shelby American literature that George sent to me. The date at the bottom reads 1/15/66. The cable address, "shelcobra" is pretty cool too!

George's story of this spec sheet:

"I picked this sheet up along with a few other pieces in early 1966 inside the front SA factory office on Imperial Hwy. The next stop would be HPM right around the corner on Sepulveda Blvd. to pick up a few more pieces and drool at the cars inside the small showroom and the small exterior lot. I still have all of the literature that I collected on my visits to both locations. From what I remember each location had something the other did not have. For example this GT 40 spec sheet was at the factory office but not at HPM."

For me, it's a thrill to hold in my hands the things that George personally picked up at actual Shelby American facilities in their 'glory years.'


(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/1-15-66_GT40_spec_sheet_from_LAX_%28George_Watters%29.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: car 26-JD on July 26, 2016, 10:44:22 AM
Quote from: richstang on Yesterday at 01:41:40 PM

At least one of the early cars was a GT500, #0100, the red fastback used in many of the period magazines.

There are at least 2 other GT500's that have upper scoop lights (#300 range), but we have to wonder if they came from the factory that way.
They were January '67 SA completion builds. I meant production cars.....wasn't the red car actually the gt500 prototype?.

Yes, couldn't the red Prototype (Lowell's car) have been the reference for the illustration.

George/Kieth THANKS for the on-going peek at the history of Shelby stuff!!


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: richstang on July 26, 2016, 11:02:42 AM
Quote from: richstang on Yesterday at 01:41:40 PM

At least one of the early cars was a GT500, #0100, the red fastback used in many of the period magazines.

There are at least 2 other GT500's that have upper scoop lights (#300 range), but we have to wonder if they came from the factory that way.
They were January '67 SA completion builds. I meant production cars.....wasn't the red car actually the gt500 prototype?.

Yes, couldn't the red Prototype (Lowell's car) have been the reference for the illustration.

George/Kieth THANKS for the on-going peak at the history of Shelby stuff!!

JD makes an excellent point.
Lowell's #V-738-2 red GT500 prototype had the chrome outer trim rim on the upper scoop light as shown in the illustration posted.
Erik's #0100 red GT500 production / engineering did not have that chrome trim ring.

The GT40 spec sheet is yet another neat piece of history. I wonder what $18,250 would equate to in todays dollars?
Thanks for sharing these pieces, as always!


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on July 26, 2016, 11:09:28 AM
    RE reply 773 The cost of a NEW HOME was about  $18,000 back then and they were financed for thirty years! That was a LOT of money.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: 67st102 on July 26, 2016, 12:12:47 PM
JD makes an excellent point.
Lowell's #V-738-2 red GT500 prototype had the chrome outer trim rim on the upper scoop light as shown in the illustration posted.
Erik's #0100 red GT500 production / engineering did not have that chrome trim ring.

The GT40 spec sheet is yet another neat piece of history. I wonder what $18,250 would equate to in todays dollars?
Thanks for sharing these pieces, as always!

This illustration does appear to be that of V738-2, the engineering prototype.  The two clues being the chrome trim around the upper scoop light and the shape of the exhaust tip.  The illustration is very similar to this photo that appeared in Automobile Quarterly.



Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: 06 GT on July 26, 2016, 05:03:50 PM
    RE reply 773 The cost of a NEW HOME was about  $18,000 back then and they were financed for thirty years! That was a LOT of money.
I just bought a new Ford Flex Limited. The sticker price was $1,045 more than I paid for our house in 1977 which was 2 years after I bought 6S843 for $140 and a 1968 TBird a guy gave me for changing the water pump in his 1963 Bird.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: richstang on July 26, 2016, 05:27:04 PM
This illustration does appear to be that of V738-2, the engineering prototype.  The two clues being the chrome trim around the upper scoop light and the shape of the exhaust tip.  The illustration is very similar to this photo that appeared in Automobile Quarterly.

Lowell, I think you found the exact photo the line art was copied from. I notice the reflections are the same, as is the slightly turned front wheel.
The news paper must have been avoiding printing a photo and the line art was a quick solution. It would be neat to find the full article and read what they knew at the time.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Ldouble619 on July 26, 2016, 05:28:28 PM
JD makes an excellent point.
Lowell's #V-738-2 red GT500 prototype had the chrome outer trim rim on the upper scoop light as shown in the illustration posted.
Erik's #0100 red GT500 production / engineering did not have that chrome trim ring.

The GT40 spec sheet is yet another neat piece of history. I wonder what $18,250 would equate to in todays dollars?
Thanks for sharing these pieces, as always!

$18,250 in 1966 would have buying power of $137,000.00 dollars in 2016.

http://www.dollartimes.com/inflation/inflation.php?amount=25&year=1966


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: richstang on July 26, 2016, 05:37:08 PM
$18,250 in 1966 would have buying power of $137,000.00 dollars in 2016.

http://www.dollartimes.com/inflation/inflation.php?amount=25&year=1966

Even doubling that, you probably would have a hard time finding a new home today for that.
$18,000 for a new home in 1966 must have been far more reasonable.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on July 26, 2016, 11:15:06 PM
This illustration does appear to be that of V738-2, the engineering prototype.  The two clues being the chrome trim around the upper scoop light and the shape of the exhaust tip.  The illustration is very similar to this photo that appeared in Automobile Quarterly.

Lowell, I think you found the exact photo the line art was copied from. I notice the reflections are the same, as is the slightly turned front wheel.
The news paper must have been avoiding printing a photo and the line art was a quick solution. It would be neat to find the full article and read what they knew at the time.

OMG - You guys are absolutely right! I just had to stitch the photos together so it would be clear to everyone.

In addition to the things you have already pointed out, check out the exact same position of the Magstars, the shiny bit of the left front wheel showing, the hood pin lanyards, the same amount of inboard lights showing, the bright interior panel, and those little 'loop' reflections on the right front fender lip.

Incredible observations - Thanks JD, Lowell and Rich!


(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Drawing___likely_source_photo.jpg)



Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM6S087 on July 27, 2016, 12:56:50 AM
Wow! Stitching those two pictures together made the comparison so easy. Thanks for the time and effort you put into that.

Steve


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: tesgt350 on July 27, 2016, 05:55:08 AM
Wow! Stitching those two pictures together made the comparison so easy. Thanks for the time and effort you put into that.

Steve

Yeah, they even drew on the reflections on the side of the Car.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on August 01, 2016, 10:08:43 AM
Well, George did it again! He said he would be sending me an 8x10 color photograph from his collection, and that in looking at it recently, he had noticed something different about it.

Here's what he said:

"I was looking at a few pictures in my collection last weekend and came across this different 8X10 color shot from the 1966 factory brochure and postcard session. I noticed something that I had not seen before. On the far left side of the picture there seems to be another GT 350 parked. We can see a small portion of the rear of the car. It now seems that possibly there were two different '66 GT 350’s taken to this photo shoot. I wonder if the other car was the second 66’ 350 built. This is a very interesting discovery.

I do think that all these factory pictures of this '66 GT 350 and, in addition, the 427 Cobra factory postcard with the red car, were all taken at the Western end of the San Fernando Valley. The landscape with the rolling hills and trees are a real giveaway."

A "very interesting discovery" indeed! He didn't tell me what was different about the photo before he sent it. So when I got it, I immediately noticed the different pose of the same model on the '66 postcard, and only after that did I notice the second car on the far left.

It's just amazing to me what's "still out there" and what may come next!


(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Forum_size.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: acman63 on August 01, 2016, 10:23:55 AM
001  had pony seats  ,  you can see it it some of the shots inside the brochure  rear seat has ribs, BUT  when I got 001  years back from Jack Schroll  in here it had pony fronts and a plastic rear shelf.  THE K NUMBER was mixed in the middle of the 65 run  right around car #400    Maybe another prototype ?   THE MYSTERY CONTINUES! 


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM6S087 on August 01, 2016, 12:15:14 PM
Does anyone other than me see a drink glass on the fender beside the model's hand?

Steve


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: car 26-JD on August 01, 2016, 12:24:16 PM
Does anyone other than me see a drink glass on the fender beside the model's hand?
Steve

Yes, I see it...
(but as noted below - "I don't")


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: acman63 on August 01, 2016, 02:26:24 PM
looks  like a pretty small one but when  I blew it up on the H/D scan I dont see it


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: s2ms on August 01, 2016, 07:20:00 PM
Definitely there IMO based on the reflection and contrast lines in the photo, plus the model's gaze. Maybe a shot glass. Based on the look on the model's face she's had a couple. Tequila?


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM6S087 on August 02, 2016, 02:11:16 AM
It’s larger than a shot glass. Looks almost as big around as a regular water glass, but about half as tall. I think that’s called a tumbler. If you zoom in too far, the glass disappears in the light colored pixels around it. And, yes, the model is looking straight at it and almost caressing it with her left hand.

But really, the most interesting thing in the picture is that car on the left. I’m not sure that’s a GT350. Seems to me that there’s enough of the taillight panel showing to see a GT350 badge if it was there. Of course it could be one of the many cars that didn’t get that badge. But I wouldn’t think they’d pick a car like that for a photo shoot.

So many questions. Thanks George & Kieth!

Steve


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM6S087 on August 02, 2016, 02:34:25 AM
Alright, who’s got a good recipe for crow?

Kieth just sent me a higher resolution scan of this photo, and the “drink glass” that I’ve been looking at disappeared into the folds of cloth on the model’s top. There is no glass. And for the record, no alcohol was involved in my illusion. I’m just naturally crazy - no stimulants or drugs required. Ha, ha!

Steve


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: s2ms on August 02, 2016, 09:16:14 AM
Interesting.

Steve, can you or Kieth please post a cropped version of the high-res scan showing the "glass"? To me it looks like there is also some distortion on the car fender that could be caused by glass.

Thanks,
Dave


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on August 02, 2016, 10:05:21 AM
Dave,

Note the line that may be perceived as the top of the "glass" is actually a sewn seam that extends all the way out to her side. See where it’s pulled in on the outside of her right side in this cropped magnification? And the “reflection” (above her hand) that may be perceived as glass is actually light reflecting off of gathered (bunched up) material at that spot. There is no gloss in this cropped image:

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/720_dpi_crop.jpg)
It's amazing to me that this has been the only thing of interest in this incredible photo!

Kieth


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: richstang on August 02, 2016, 10:09:47 AM
We only get a slight hint at the white car in the background, we can only speculate.
To me, it would make sense it was another '66 Shelby.
Zooming in I don't see any reverse lights....or the taillight panel emblem as Steve mentioned.


The models' pose caressing the car appears like that of a TV game show presentation.
You know "The Price is Right" introducing....."A NEW CAR!"


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: car 26-JD on August 02, 2016, 10:39:15 AM
Dave,

Note the line that may be perceived as the top of the "glass" is actually a sewn seam that extends all the way out to her side. See where it’s pulled in on the outside of her right side in this cropped magnification? And the “reflection” (above her hand) that may be perceived as glass is actually light reflecting off of gathered (bunched up) material at that spot. There is no gloss in this cropped image:
Kieth
Kieth, thanks for the detail


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: s2ms on August 02, 2016, 11:36:04 AM
Kieth,

Thanks for posting that photo.

PM sent...

Dave


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on August 03, 2016, 01:31:12 AM
I feel the best way to compare two photos is to stitch them together - check this out.
On top is the 1966 Shelby postcard photo and on the bottom is the George Watters "extra car" photo that we've been discussing here.
They are essentially identical except for the position of the model's head and her left hand.
You can see exactly where the second car was cropped out of the postcard photo on top by looking at the tree & shadow in the lower photo.

Note how her hand is now gently caressing the hood with the back of her hand in the lower photo:

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/66_postcard_%28top%29_-_GW_extra_car_photo_%28bottom%29.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM6S087 on August 03, 2016, 04:28:34 AM
I’ll be the first to admit that pictures can be deceiving – particularly in the small details. (For proof, see the “drinking glass” fiasco in previous posts to this thread.) But I’ve seen other very early photos of carryovers that look like the grille center cap is all chrome – with no argent paint on the back portion like the regular production part got. These two pictures would seem to bear that out. That center cap looks all chrome to me. And isn’t that 6S001?

How about a high resolution zoom on that area.  Have you got time to do that,  Kieth?

Steve


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on August 03, 2016, 07:59:21 AM
         Steve,
             The grill center cap was a pre production piece for sure. I've seen photos of other prototype Mustangs with the same center cap.
          Randy


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on August 03, 2016, 09:27:42 AM
I’ll be the first to admit that pictures can be deceiving – particularly in the small details. (For proof, see the “drinking glass” fiasco in previous posts to this thread.) But I’ve seen other very early photos of carryovers that look like the grille center cap is all chrome – with no argent paint on the back portion like the regular production part got. These two pictures would seem to bear that out. That center cap looks all chrome to me. And isn’t that 6S001?

How about a high resolution zoom on that area.  Have you got time to do that,  Kieth?

Steve

Hey Steve,

Here you go - this a 600 dpi crop of the grille trim center in George's "two car" photograph. I remember we looked at this same feature on some other early car photos of George's way back in the beginning of this thread, and this center cap looks just like those. Definitely not argent paint like the mating pieces.

And yes, it is my understanding that this is 6S001.

Kieth

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/600_dpi_crop_-_grille_trim_center.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: acman63 on August 03, 2016, 10:05:16 AM
Im thinking out loud here that when we did 001  it had a bunch of items that werent on the normal cars, alumimi, upper grille support, aluminum inner quarter windows etc.  I m thinking ithad a different grille joint like a 65 but not exactly  the same.  does anyone have any pics of 001  as it was at Monterey last year


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: tesgt350 on August 03, 2016, 10:30:12 AM
Hey Steve,

Here you go - this a 600 dpi crop of the grille trim center in George's "two car" photograph. I remember we looked at this same feature on some other early car photos of George's way back in the beginning of this thread, and this center cap looks just like those. Definitely not argent paint like the mating pieces.

And yes, it is my understanding that this is 6S001.

Kieth

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/600_dpi_crop_-_grille_trim_center.jpg)

Is it just me or does that one look a LOT skinnier than the ones used on 1966 Mustangs?  That one looks as skinny as the ones used on 1967-1968 Mustangs.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM6S087 on August 03, 2016, 10:47:01 AM
Is it just me or does that one look a LOT shiner than the ones used on 1966 Mustangs?  That one looks as skinny as the ones used on 1967-1968 Mustangs.

THANKS for the crop on the grille, Kieth!!!

And, yes, that grille center cap looks shinier than the ones used on regular production 1966 Mustangs and GT350s. That's because (as Randy wrote) it's a pre-production piece. It's all chrome. The regular production part had argent paint on the back portion to make it blend with the surrounding grille panel. But I believe it is the same as the production part as far as dimensions. It just looks skinny because of the angle of this photo.

Steve


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM6S087 on August 03, 2016, 10:50:52 AM
Im thinking out loud here that when we did 001  it had a bunch of items that werent on the normal cars, alumimi, upper grille support, aluminum inner quarter windows etc.  I m thinking ithad a different grille joint like a 65 but not exactly  the same.  does anyone have any pics of 001  as it was at Monterey last year

6S001 at Monterey 2015.

Lots of interesting pre-production stuff. But it looks like they put a regular production grille center cap on there.

Steve


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM6S087 on August 03, 2016, 10:53:58 AM
I feel the best way to compare two photos is to stitch them together - check this out.
On top is the 1966 Shelby postcard photo and on the bottom is the George Watters "extra car" photo that we've been discussing here.
They are essentially identical except for the position of the model's head and her left hand.
You can see exactly where the second car was cropped out of the postcard photo on top by looking at the tree & shadow in the lower photo.

Note how her hand is now gently caressing the hood with the back of her hand in the lower photo:

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/66_postcard_%28top%29_-_GW_extra_car_photo_%28bottom%29.jpg)

The difference in sharpness, contrast and detail between these 2 pictures is amazing. The George Watters picture is dramatically better to zoom and study. Plus the added interest of the extra car on the left.

Steve


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: silverton_ford on August 03, 2016, 11:04:20 AM
Im thinking out loud here that when we did 001  it had a bunch of items that werent on the normal cars, alumimi, upper grille support, aluminum inner quarter windows etc.  I m thinking ithad a different grille joint like a 65 but not exactly  the same.  does anyone have any pics of 001  as it was at Monterey last year

Here's when it was at Pebble Beach 2015.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on August 23, 2016, 09:12:56 AM
George recently sent me a couple photos that he took of LAX in 1979. As he & I always do, we like to compare features in newer photos to the same features in the famous Shelby American photos from back in the day. In this one, he was pointing out the staircase on the east side of the East Hangar. Then we compared it to original photos that showed that same staircase, so I inserted one of those into his photo.

Here's what he has to say about these photos:

"I took these 3 pictures in late 1979. Shelby American had been gone for 12 years. I had not been down to 6501 W. Imperial Hwy. for many years and thought I would drive down to see what the old factory looked like and what, if anything, was left on the exterior of the property. By the way, as you will notice, the quality of the pictures is not very good.                                                     

First off, I was happy to see that the Blast Wall was still there and looked exactly like it did in 1965, 66’ and 67’. It sure was strange to not see any Cobras, Daytona Coupes, Ford GT’s, GT 350’s or GT 500’s parked in front of it like we did in all of the many factory pictures we all have seen thru the years. The Wall was probably the most famous exterior feature, after all of the cars of course!! I could not get a look in back of it to see if the small test track was still there and of course these days there is no way you could get right next to the runways like you could in the Shelby days.
                                                                                                                                                                                             
The exterior of the 2 hangers basically looked like they did back in the day. Again very strange to not see any of the Shelby cars parked around them or being worked on. I did notice that the small front Guard Shack was still in the same place. Unfortunately the front office building (which had the Shelby American sign) on the left side of the gate as you enter was now gone. This made the entrance much larger and both hangers now seemed really far apart. The areas around both hangers still looked like it did.  I also noticed that all of the concrete pavement surrounding the hangers and blast wall was still original. I wondered if the current employees knew how many Great and Famous cars had been parked on it.                                                                                               

Even when I took these shots in 1979, one thing that had changed was the traffic. LAX airport and the surrounding areas was becoming very crowded. These days the entire area around the SA factory and LAX airport is totally built up and very crowded. Gone are the days where Shelby American cars could be seen driving at speed right next to the airport runways or down the city street and around the corner to Hi Performance Motors on Sepulveda Blvd."   

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/The_east_side_of_the_east_hangar_at_LAX_%281979%29.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on August 23, 2016, 01:11:23 PM
    Wouldn't it be fantastic to 'stage" a modern shoot there with a hundred REAL SAI cars. THAT would be a photo op for certain. It would be tough to get the current "residents" to allow it though SAAC did pull off a tour a few years ago for the last convention in Fontana.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: camp upshur on August 23, 2016, 02:54:30 PM
 "Gone are the days where Shelby American cars could be seen driving at speed right next to the airport runways or down the city street and around the corner to Hi Performance Motors on Sepulveda Blvd."    

Not So!

I work at LAX and occasionally drive my 65 to work still.
As I've mentioned on this thread, my former boss, Gary Meermans, drove his  CSX 3000 series 427 Cobra to work regularly for many years and we once even went to Dave Dralle's shop in Torrence during lunch!


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: 06 GT on August 23, 2016, 04:31:27 PM
    Wouldn't it be fantastic to 'stage" a modern shoot there with a hundred REAL SAI cars. THAT would be a photo op for certain. It would be tough to get the current "residents" to allow it though SAAC did pull off a tour a few years ago for the last convention in Fontana.
We were all kept in one "public" area for the tour. It's an import company so under control of Customs. TSA also gets touchy as the back area has access to the whole airport. Security is pretty tight now. A company I worked for did business with some of the airlines. I used to park at the big hangers at the west end and catch a shuttle to the terminal the driver would tell me the code for the door and I was in. Today you can't even get in the gate without airport ID. I work for the City of LA and we have a seperate section at work to clear any of our employees when they have to go on the airport property.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: richstang on August 23, 2016, 05:20:50 PM
(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/The_east_side_of_the_east_hangar_at_LAX_%281979%29.jpg)

Nearly 12 years later and it still looks very similar to the '66-'67 photos. (Nice touch on the '66 photo insert, Kieth)
I really like seeing the building from this distance in this lower view point, versus the older aerial views. It helps add to the perspective.
As mentioned the original SA sales office is gone, but it does look like a small building was added to the front of the old Race Shop/West hanger.

Did anyone notice the campers in the parking lot (Workers living on campus full time)?

The blast wall is a very interesting part of the SA history at LAX. I'm not sure I've ever seen a photo of it from the inside. (anyone?)
It's hard to imagine a car fitting inside with enough room around it to paint, never mind the lack of ventilation.

I'm amazed George had the foresight to photograph the LAX location only a decade later.
Having worked at a Van Conversion company during my college year summers, I never gave it a thought to take pictures of the building, parking/storage lot, or assembly areas. Looking back it would have made for some interesting conversations.
Well Done George!
I am looking forward to any other photos you may have to share with us.
Rich P.
 


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: 06 GT on August 23, 2016, 10:09:12 PM
Did anyone notice the campers in the parking lot (Workers living on campus full time)?
Chuck Beck used to fly to work there in his Swift. I'd love to find a picture of it parked out back among the Mustangs. Airports seem to attract a lot of live in employees.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on August 24, 2016, 09:01:14 AM
And here's the west side of the East Hangar.
The yellow line connects the staircase in George's photo to the same staircase in this original b&w Shelby American photo.

This 427 Cobra photo was used in the 1966 Car & Driver Yearbook:

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/The_west_side_of_the_east_hangar_at_LAX_%281979%29.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: richstang on August 24, 2016, 08:37:53 PM
Another neat photo. Thanks for sharing/posting,

It looks like the guard both is still there (just under the end of your added yellow line) and,
we can see a hint of the "Theme Building" restaurant way in the background.
Were the two hanger buildings always such a bright white paint?


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on August 25, 2016, 01:23:22 AM
Here's the last (for now) of George's 1979 LAX photos. You can clearly see that the guard shack was still there at that time.
But as he pointed out to me, notice how far apart the hangars looked then because the Sales Office was no longer there.

The Sales Office would have been to the left, between the guard shack and the West Hangar, and is shown well in the 1966 photo below George's:

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/The_guard_shack_at_LAX_%28George_Watters_-_1979%29.jpg)

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/The_Sales_Office_at_LAX_%281966%29.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on August 25, 2016, 01:28:31 AM
Another neat photo. Thanks for sharing/posting,

It looks like the guard both is still there (just under the end of your added yellow line) and,
we can see a hint of the "Theme Building" restaurant way in the background.
Were the two hanger buildings always such a bright white paint?

You're welcome! This 3rd photo shows the guard shack much better.
I'm not sure about the color of the hangars in the 1960's compared to these late 1970's photos, but someone here might know...


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: rhjanes on August 25, 2016, 05:34:56 AM
^^ yep!  and a Pinto!


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: acman63 on August 25, 2016, 07:39:16 AM
Wow, a Lotus Europa caught moving under its own power.


might have been stalled in the intersection


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on August 25, 2016, 08:46:08 AM
   Aren't they the same thing but one comes from England? Hysterical


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: richstang on August 26, 2016, 01:58:49 PM
The Lotus caught in the intersection just adds to the cool factor of these period photos!

I didn't know that was a four point intersection. Current maps show it is only three points, with the four point intersection further west a few hundred feet.
 Chug a Lug
 


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on September 15, 2016, 01:43:40 AM
George & I were discussing his photo with the Lotus Europa that he took at LAX in 1979. And we were talking about the bits & pieces of stories we had heard over the years about Shelby American employees transferring cars from the production and race facilities at LAX to High Performance Motor's second dealership on Sepulveda Blvd. In his photo, the street that went out from between the hangars and crossed West Imperial Highway got our attention. So I got an aerial image and we started to piece together what we feel quite sure was "the back way" to HPM 2 from LAX that the cars were likely to have been driven on. 

The yellow line shows how they would have left LAX from the main entrance between the hangars, crossed West Imperial Highway, and entered California Street (ironic!). That would take them to E. Walnut Ave., where they would take a left towards Sepulveda Blvd., where the dealership was on the corner. George said this would have been quicker, easier (and more discreet when necessary?) than the much busier route of getting on West Imperial Highway and taking a right on Sepulveda Blvd. The white line shows where the Lotus would have been on W. Imperial Hwy.

He also has a vivid memory of the time when he was on the corner and about to enter the dealership, when he saw a red 427 street Cobra being driven down E. Walnut Ave. towards the building. He didn't know if it was a car returning from a test drive, or a car being transferred from LAX, but he said it sure made a lasting impression on him.

I can see it in my mind now:

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/The__back_way__from_LAX_to_HPM_2.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: camp upshur on December 17, 2016, 10:59:35 AM
 

September 1967


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: car 26-JD on December 17, 2016, 12:23:20 PM


September 1967
Wow, the planes at the right in the red box look like Fighter Jets. (?)

Also, the cars at the far left, orange arrow, wonder if any are Shelby's?



Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: rhjanes on December 17, 2016, 01:56:36 PM
The "fighters"....the 4 in the middle look like T-33 trainers.  The USAF's primer jet trainers.  The two at either end, not sure. 


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: camp upshur on December 17, 2016, 02:44:11 PM
The aircraft are T-33 and T-38 trainers, Convair 580s and Pan Am 707s.
The top T-38 has its' empennage pulled which would indicate being readied for the test-cell (those two rectangular buildings adjacent).
The 707s were parked there due to a Pan Am strike.

There are many changes to the hanger facility area, some:
-the 'sales office' is already gone and an office type structure has been added to the west hanger;
-the paint shop(?) building formally at the east end of the blast fence is gone;
-the older test-cell hush-houses seen in backround of pic posted here have been removed, leaving the two more modern test cells.

I'm sure there are many more changes....


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on May 09, 2017, 09:00:40 AM
I am not a Facebooker, so George sent me this August 9, 1963 photo. The caption said that it was Vic Damone stopping by the NATIONWIDE SAFTI-BRAKE CENTER to have his brakes checked out. Some perusing in the Registry tells me that the Cobra may be CSX2039.

Of interest to me, is that this photo was taken at 4701 Lankershim Blvd. in North Hollywood...

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/North_Hollywood.jpg)


...and this image shows that Cutter Ford Sales Inc. was right up the street at 5500 Lankershim Blvd.

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Cutter_Ford_Sales_Inc_.jpg)


So the photo at Nationwide Safti-Brake Center is the closest I have ever come to seeing a period photo of Cutter Ford Sales. After my car's duty with Hertz, it was shipped there on 9/26/67.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Coralsnake on May 09, 2017, 09:18:50 AM
Here you go...vintage 1968 pictures of Cutter...That's the owner Gerald Cutter. The Time Machine scores again!

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/10081/cutter5678.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Coralsnake on May 09, 2017, 09:25:29 AM
(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/10081/cutter1~0.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Coralsnake on May 09, 2017, 09:26:10 AM
(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/10081/cutter789.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on May 09, 2017, 09:28:28 AM
THANKS Pete!

You are the King of Dealership photos - I should have asked you first!

Kieth


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Coralsnake on May 09, 2017, 09:32:31 AM
Happy to share.

 ;D ;D


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: tesgt350 on May 09, 2017, 09:32:44 AM
Wow, the planes at the right in the red box look like Fighter Jets. (?)

Also, the cars at the far left, orange arrow, wonder if any are Shelby's?



If those ARE Shelby's (Orange Arrow), I wonder if they got sand blasted when those 5 Planes made the hard Right Turn has they headed out to the Run Way.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: markko67 on May 09, 2017, 02:00:06 PM
There is still a Ford dealership at 5500 Lankershim. It's called Sunrise Ford now. The building shown is those pictures however, was just recently torn down and they're in the process of putting up a new building.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Coralsnake on May 09, 2017, 09:50:22 PM
Looks like google earth has one last shot of the old building.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on May 10, 2017, 09:28:17 AM
There is still a Ford dealership at 5500 Lankershim. It's called Sunrise Ford now. The building shown is those pictures however, was just recently torn down and they're in the process of putting up a new building.

Thanks for bringing to my attention the correct spelling of Lankershim (Blvd). I have a list of Shelby American Franchised Dealers and it's incorrectly spelled as Lankershiem on that list.

My ad above and Google maps say Lankershim, so I went back and corrected the spelling in my post.    Chug a Lug


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Wedgeman on May 10, 2017, 09:51:48 AM
TOUGH TO BEAT.... PeelOut


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on May 10, 2017, 10:17:14 AM
After my car's duty with Hertz, it was shipped there on 9/26/67.

Did dealers request used Hertz cars from Shelby American, and that's how/why they got shipped wherever they went?


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on May 10, 2017, 12:17:55 PM
    Out here in Ca they were "offered" to local performance Ford dealers. The prospective dealer could go to SAI and pick the car/s they wanted same as common used car wholesaling is done. They weren't just sent or dumped on dealers if that is what you are asking. I do not know how it was done in other states/ sales zones.
     Randy


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on May 11, 2017, 01:53:15 AM
Okay, Thanks for explaining how that worked Randy.

No, I didn't mean that they were "dumped on dealers" - it's just that the words "shipped to" about my car in the Registry caught my attention.

Kieth


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Brant on May 11, 2017, 04:40:10 AM
Did dealers request used Hertz cars from Shelby American, and that's how/why they got shipped wherever they went?

At least here on the east coast, many were sold at wholesale auto auctions just as used rental cars are sold today.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on May 11, 2017, 07:43:02 AM
  Agreed Brant. The fact that SAI was "here" ( in So Cal) was the reason local cars were returned there. Hertz hadn't started selling cars "themselves" at that time and used commercial auctions to sell off used cars.
   Randy


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on May 11, 2017, 09:14:56 AM
In addition to these two recent photo location finds by George,

The Bullock's Fashion Square location:

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Bullocks.jpg)

and the 1967 postcard location on Newcastle Avenue:

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/67_postcard_location_on_Newcastle_Ave.jpg)

...he recently sent me an email titled:

Another original Shelby American 1966 photo location found!

Here are his words:

“I decided to go back and look at a few magazines that I had not read in 40 plus years. One in particular that I always liked was the September 1966 Motorcade article titled “Rent-A-Tiger“ by John Lawlor. It was a road test with many photos comparing the 1966 GT 350H and the 1966 GT 350. Both cars were automatics. Basically they were trying to see if there was any difference in them, thinking that the H was maybe inferior to the regular GT 350. After all was said and done, their conclusion was that there was no difference in cars except for their colors!

I had always thought that their photo location was very interesting but yet strange and could not figure out where it was shot. It really looked like some type of a Fort. As I looked at the picture below the background, the rock formations seemed familiar. I had never in the past really paid attention to them. All of a sudden it came to me. This was some type of a motion picture set at Vasquez Rocks, a very famous Hollywood movie and TV location that had been used hundreds of times since the 1930’s. It's about 25 miles or so North of the San Fernando Valley and I would guess about 50 miles North of the Shelby American LAX Factory. I have been there a couple of times thru the years and it is now a California State Park.

Below is the original picture from Motorcade magazine with a current shot of this same exact spot:

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Rock_formation_in_John_Lawlor_article_%281966%29.jpg)


and a 1966 shot showing this same location during a episode of the TV show “The Wild Wild West" starring Robert Conrad:"

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Vasquez_Rocks_b.jpg)



I could hardly believe it! I told George that I've been looking at that GT 350H article for decades, and had no clue where those photos were taken. I also told him that I always thought that the location was a really odd one for a road test article. I mean, some dusty lot by some old “fort”? But it turns out that it was chosen as a photogenic location that had a really unique background.

And, another bonus for me. That GT 350H article was from a magazine that is not identified at the bottom of the pages. So I've had it since the 1970's but had no idea what magazine or issue it was in. Well, George's magazine is complete so he knew exactly what issue it was from.

Another mystery solved for me – Thanks George!










Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: 2112 on May 11, 2017, 01:03:03 PM
That Rock Formation is where Capt. Kirk fought the Bad Ass Lizard man.



Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Don Johnston on May 11, 2017, 01:53:01 PM
Going back to the Cutter Ford dealership in North Hollywood photos, I have shared them with the Cutter family here that has a number of different auto dealerships (Dodge, Jeep, Fiat, Mazda, GMC) and a Cutter Ford.  The North Hollywood location was their first Ford dealership. 8)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on May 12, 2017, 01:03:31 AM
That Rock Formation is where Capt. Kirk fought the Bad Ass Lizard man.

Seen here:
(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/lizard_man.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: MyShelbyDream on May 12, 2017, 02:53:27 AM
Brilliant Kieth, but I really laughed out loud that Michael knew the trekkie trivia question of the year.  Nothing reminds me of the '60s more than Shelby's and Star Trek!


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: richstang on May 12, 2017, 06:50:40 AM
Kirk versus the Gorn...

It must have been the place to go...another nice location find George, well done!!!


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: 2112 on May 12, 2017, 08:50:00 AM
LOL!

Nice find Keith!

I think I have seen that episode 6-7 times. Looks like I wasn't the only one. Chug a Lug


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Coralsnake on May 12, 2017, 09:11:13 AM
Everything leads back to Shelby...its like Kevin Bacon


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: acman63 on May 12, 2017, 11:41:16 AM
you can see the rock formation and the fake rubber head

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJ-ATwRq5KY


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on May 12, 2017, 04:02:50 PM
Nice find Keith!

George sent that photo to me.

AND he just sent (gave) me the September 1966 issue of MOTORCADE (among others) with the GT 350H photo/article in it.

Who does that??

Thanks George



Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on May 12, 2017, 04:08:23 PM
you can see the rock formation and the fake rubber head

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJ-ATwRq5KY

To be honest, I was never a Trekkie. Yeah, I'm that guy.

But when Jim showed me this video clip filmed at the Vasquez Rocks, I have to say it was pretty darn funny to me!

Cool because it was so nerdy, you know?


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: 2112 on May 12, 2017, 05:57:04 PM
you can see the rock formation and the fake rubber head

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJ-ATwRq5KY

Hah! I had not seen that in years. Somehow I remembered it being more realistic. Then again, I probably saw it last around 1973.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on June 23, 2017, 03:07:30 AM
Check out this new (to me) LAX photo. I just found it at SAAC 42 in Indy and couldn't grab it fast enough. Finding a photo you've never seen before in person is even more exciting than finding one on the internet! I'm posting it in this thread because our love of LAX photos is what first brought George Watters and I together a few years ago. The literature vendor didn't know anything about it and there was nothing on the back of it, so I'm really in the dark about this one. I don't know who the man with Shelby is, but I'm hoping that somebody here might know.

George and I discussed this photo and he points out that the men are standing behind the East Hangar (street car production) and that the West Hangar (competition cars) can be seen in the background. What struck me right away is that this is a rare view of the back of the race car hangar. You can see the loading ramp on the left side of the hangar. That loading ramp has been seen in other photos taken from the front, but this is a good view of it from the back. We also agreed that it looks like it was taken in the early days of Shelby American moving into LAX, because of the very few cars that are lined up so far. We talked about the fact that most of the well known LAX photos that we know of always show multiple rows of GT 350's, but in this photo there's instead a couple of Cobras behind a row of only about maybe 10 GT 350's.

We see that it's a 289 Cobra that they're standing by, and I also noticed a front license plate on the nearest GT 350. I wonder if it's a company car? This photo is downsized here to fit the forum restrictions, but I have it in a 2026 x 1320 size if anyone wants it. In the larger size I have, it appears that the first and the third GT 350 may have top stripes, as the sides of their hood scoops appear dark.

I really felt fortunate to stumble upon this great photo by accident, and will be very interested to see if the members here can help us learn more about it.

Thanks,
Kieth


(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/LAX_%28resized_for_Forum_post%29.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM6S087 on June 23, 2017, 05:30:27 AM
TOO COOL!

The first GT350 does have top stripes. Look at the sheet metal between the top of the bumper and grille. It definitely has stripes on it.

And I agree that the third GT350 looks like it has stripes because of the darkness of the hood scoop. But the proof is not as conclusive.

Great find! Thanks for sharing.

Steve


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: richstang on June 23, 2017, 07:22:33 AM
What a fantastic photo find Kieth!

That is a small number of GT350s in that single row and they all appear to be completed. I have to wonder if they were just brought over from Venice and parked in the LAX lot.
Does anyone know the date in May when they moved in? We know the open house was in the first week of June. The lot was loaded with rows of GT350s then.

I noticed the cinder block wall that extended off the race shop hanger on the far west side is not there yet. Nice early photo.

Thanks for sharing with us!


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: camp upshur on June 23, 2017, 08:34:07 AM

Wow, thank you very much for sharing this.
Mustang shipments seemed to stop 12/30/64~ and then resume, 3/19/65~.
Can your photos discern if the license plate a CA MFR plate or a numbered plate?


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: MyShelbyDream on June 23, 2017, 08:55:23 AM
I'm pretty sure the gentleman shaking hands with 'Ol Shel is just his bookie. ;D


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: 06 GT on June 23, 2017, 10:58:50 AM
I'm pretty sure the gentleman shaking hands with 'Ol Shel is just his bookie. ;D
Or the real estate agent thinking he just snookered some chicken farmer into signing a lease on two empty hangers to store some cars.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on June 23, 2017, 03:33:24 PM
The first GT350 does have top stripes. Look at the sheet metal between the top of the bumper and grille. It definitely has stripes on it.

And I agree that the third GT350 looks like it has stripes because of the darkness of the hood scoop. But the proof is not as conclusive.

Steve - Good Eye! I agree with your observations.

Thanks for helping,
Kieth


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on June 23, 2017, 03:36:33 PM
I have to wonder if they were just brought over from Venice and parked in the LAX lot.

Rich - This is the coolest thought yet, I'm going to believe it in my mind.

Thanks!
Kieth




Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on June 23, 2017, 03:43:25 PM
Can your photos discern if the license plate a CA MFR plate or a numbered plate?

It's only this one photo that I have, and that area isn't too clear on it. I can see what appears to be a single character on the left, a large space, and then another single character on the right. I don't know what kind of plate that might be??

I may try a higher res scan of just that area and see if I can make out any more.

Kieth


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Michael M on June 23, 2017, 09:38:52 PM
Could that possibly be Zora Arkus-Duntov?


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: 2112 on June 24, 2017, 12:08:20 AM
Could that possibly be Zora Arkus-Duntov?

Good guess, I can't tell. I found a picture of the two of them, you can make the decision.

They are both leaner here;

(http://i64.tinypic.com/330669s.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM6S087 on June 24, 2017, 11:04:53 AM
(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/LAX_%28resized_for_Forum_post%29.jpg)

My first thought was that the fellow on the right was a Ford executive. Seems like I may have seen him in some other period pictures. But that's really just a first impression guess.

Steve


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: car 26-JD on June 25, 2017, 06:46:45 AM
^^^^^  Maybe he's with the airport, Chuck Cantwell's new book says that there were some issues that had to get worked out once certain people found out the new tenant was not in the aircraft industry - just a thought.

Edit: (chapter 6, the first three pages lists some of the people involved in the leasing and issue)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: gt350hr on June 26, 2017, 07:28:10 AM
   Not Zora, too short is one of several reasons.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on September 28, 2017, 09:47:10 AM
It's ironic that the Eleanor subject is currently being discussed in the Replicas and Tribute Board, as George had recently sent me some photos of the actual 67 GT 500 (#3196) that he used & drove to record all the sounds for the movie. It's all in the timing!

Here's his story and some photos of the car:

"After reading the discussion on the Forum today regarding the Gone in 60 Seconds Eleanor’s, I figured I would take a look for the pictures I took of the REAL 67’ GT 500 #3196 that we used to record all the Eleanor sounds in the entire movie. There was a wonderful article written many years ago in The Shelby American by Rick Kopec, telling the story of the sound in the movie, so I will make this short and try not to repeat too much.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
I was the Supervising Sound Editor on the movie, which means that I was responsible for all of its sound. Basically EVERY sound in the movie was replaced 100%, with the exception of the dialogue. The sound of EVERY vehicle was replaced and not one bit in the final movie is original.                                                                                                                                                                                 
                   
To jump ahead, I took a recordist with me to Cinema Vehicles (the company that built the Eleanor's) in search of a car that would be the sound of Eleanor for the entire movie. I drove a few of the real Eleanor’s (the very few that were not wrecked) but they were very unsafe and were really beat. I ended up finding a real GT 500 (3196) in their warehouse and  took it for a drive and we recorded it but after I got back to the studio and listened to our tests I knew it needed to be a lot stronger sounding. I called Cinema Vehicles and asked if they could change the exhaust for me to 1965 GT 350 type with glass packs and side exhaust. They did, and a week later I went back and started it up, took a test drive and knew right off the bat we now had the sound of Eleanor for the movie. It was day and night stronger sounding than the stock exhaust.

Walt Disney Studios rented Willow Springs for 2 weeks so we could record off of any public streets.  Every bit of sound for all vehicles was recorded there with the exception of the Ferraris. I made extensive diagrams and notes for every vehicle maneuver basically being able to match all of their moves. I did all the driving with the exception of the Ferraris which we recorded at another location. We spent 2 full days with 3196 and recorded hours and hours of material, even smaller type sounds like the shifter, doors, trunk and hood open and closes. We always recorded way more than needed just in case a shot would be changed. With the costs to rent the track, enclosed truck to get the car to the track and a mechanic, there was no way we could ask the Studio for another day so it was always best to get everything even if it was not a shot that was in the movie. So while Eleanor is not a real GT 500, every bit of its sound is! By the way 3196 does make an appearance at the end of the movie.     

On my first trip to Cinema Vehicles I took a few pictures of some of the various Eleanor’s that had been built and used in the movie. I don’t remember showing any of the pictures before so we are going to post them in the next couple of days so everyone can get a behind the scenes look at the cars after filming."

What are the odds of us Shelby Club members having the opportunity to see these behind-the-scenes photos and learning these details?

Thanks George!
Kieth  

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/3196_a.jpg)

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/3196_b.jpg)

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/3196_c.jpg)

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/3196_d.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: richstang on September 28, 2017, 10:11:16 AM
Thanks for sharing these fantastic "behind the scenes" photos & story George! Great work on the improved sound of Eleanor and all the other details!
It's neat to see Willow Springs was involved yet again with a Shelby.

Wrong side stripe placement. HA! Sorry, had to say it.
#3196 was up for auction a while back. I wonder if they mentioned its past sound work in this movie of the listing...(probably not).

What was the cardboard triangle taped over the side of the car used for?
(Maybe protecting the microphone from wind noise and water from the wet road surface?)

Thanks Kieth for scanning and writing up the details!
 Chug a Lug



Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Shelby_0022 on September 28, 2017, 10:46:23 AM
Completely awesome!!! Thanks Kieth!  Chug a Lug


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: shlby66 on September 28, 2017, 11:26:22 AM



                Love, those side exiting, exhaust pipes!  Chug a Lug


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Don Johnston on September 28, 2017, 11:56:16 AM
Oh, great, now there will the parking lot show "experts" that will tell all the 67 GT500 owners that their cars came with side exhaust from the factory! HeadSpin


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: car 26-JD on September 28, 2017, 12:12:15 PM
Thanks for sharing these fantastic "behind the scenes" photos & story George! Great work on the improved sound of Eleanor and all the other details!
It's neat to see Willow Springs was involved yet again with a Shelby.

Thanks Kieth for scanning and writing up the details!
 Chug a Lug

YES - Thanks George & Kieth


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: 2112 on September 28, 2017, 12:13:26 PM


                Love, those side exiting, exhaust pipes!  Chug a Lug

+1


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: tesgt350 on September 28, 2017, 01:19:44 PM
It's ironic that the Eleanor subject is currently being discussed in the Replicas and Tribute Board, as George had recently sent me some photos of the actual 67 GT 500 (#3196) that he used & drove to record all the sounds for the movie. It's all in the timing!

Here's his story and some photos of the car:

"After reading the discussion on the Forum today regarding the Gone in 60 Seconds Eleanor’s, I figured I would take a look for the pictures I took of the REAL 67’ GT 500 #3196 that we used to record all the Eleanor sounds in the entire movie. There was a wonderful article written many years ago in The Shelby American by Rick Kopec, telling the story of the sound in the movie, so I will make this short and try not to repeat too much.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
I was the Supervising Sound Editor on the movie, which means that I was responsible for all of its sound. Basically EVERY sound in the movie was replaced 100%, with the exception of the dialogue. The sound of EVERY vehicle was replaced and not one bit in the final movie is original.                                                                                                                                                                                 
                   
To jump ahead, I took a recordist with me to Cinema Vehicles (the company that built the Eleanor's) in search of a car that would be the sound of Eleanor for the entire movie. I drove a few of the real Eleanor’s (the very few that were not wrecked) but they were very unsafe and were really beat. I ended up finding a real GT 500 (3196) in their warehouse and  took it for a drive and we recorded it but after I got back to the studio and listened to our tests I knew it needed to be a lot stronger sounding. I called Cinema Vehicles and asked if they could change the exhaust for me to 1965 GT 350 type with glass packs and side exhaust. They did, and a week later I went back and started it up, took a test drive and knew right off the bat we now had the sound of Eleanor for the movie. It was day and night stronger sounding than the stock exhaust.

Walt Disney Studios rented Willow Springs for 2 weeks so we could record off of any public streets.  Every bit of sound for all vehicles was recorded there with the exception of the Ferraris. I made extensive diagrams and notes for every vehicle maneuver basically being able to match all of their moves. I did all the driving with the exception of the Ferraris which we recorded at another location. We spent 2 full days with 3196 and recorded hours and hours of material, even smaller type sounds like the shifter, doors, trunk and hood open and closes. We always recorded way more than needed just in case a shot would be changed. With the costs to rent the track, enclosed truck to get the car to the track and a mechanic, there was no way we could ask the Studio for another day so it was always best to get everything even if it was not a shot that was in the movie. So while Eleanor is not a real GT 500, every bit of its sound is! By the way 3196 does make an appearance at the end of the movie.     

On my first trip to Cinema Vehicles I took a few pictures of some of the various Eleanor’s that had been built and used in the movie. I don’t remember showing any of the pictures before so we are going to post them in the next couple of days so everyone can get a behind the scenes look at the cars after filming."

What are the odds of us Shelby Club members having the opportunity to see these behind-the-scenes photos and learning these details?

Thanks George!
Kieth  

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/3196_a.jpg)

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/3196_b.jpg)

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/3196_c.jpg)

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/3196_d.jpg)

What is that Sticker on the Dash above the Radio?


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: 66S285 on September 28, 2017, 01:29:06 PM
should be worn in connection with the shoulder harness.  Can't make out the first couple of words.  


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: car 26-JD on September 28, 2017, 01:29:08 PM
What is that Sticker on the Dash above the Radio?

Looks like one of the "Seat Belt Shoulder Belt" stickers that goes on the sun visors...



Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on October 04, 2017, 08:34:58 AM
Here's the story of the wrecked Eleanor cars from George:

"After reading the discussions of the seven figure Eleanor’s on the Forum last week, I figured it was time to get out my original pictures for everyone to see. I took all of these on my first trip to Cinema Vehicles in late 1999 when I was searching for a car to use for the sound of Eleanor (as I discussed last week when we posted pictures of the 67 GT 500 that would become that sound). I have not looked at these in years and as you can see this is what the cars looked like after their use in the movie. When I saw them in person they were just very used, really beat, extremely dirty movie prop cars and that was it. I did get a chance to look at one of the “Beauty” Eleanor’s parked inside but unfortunately did not take any pictures, but I can tell you the car was stunning. It had the full interior that we see in the movie, along with the powerful engine and beautiful paint. By the way, this car was used for close ups and interior shots but not for the speed scenes. You could say that this car Had It All!! It was also used in all of the promotional pictures that we all have seen thru the years especially the ones with Nick standing next to it.

Getting back to my story, the rest of the cars that you see in the pictures below I must say disappointed me when I saw them. I did not know at that time that in a hour or so I would end up finding a real 67 GT 500 on the premises and that car would become the sound of Eleanor. I remember that 11 Eleanor’s were built and an additional one was completed after the movie came out. I probably saw 7 or 8 in the yard that day and ended up test driving the two best condition ones on city streets, but right off the bat I knew they were not safe and would not work at all. Everything was bad including the brakes, steering, shocks, ride, rattles, squeaks, the smell of gasoline etc. etc. etc., and on top of that they DID NOT SOUND GOOD!

Each of the 11 cars served a specific purpose during filming. We know that the “Beauty” cars were used for exterior close ups, interior driving and dash board shots and promotion, but in addition there were cars fitted with new stronger engines for the high speed driving scenes such as the ones filmed in the LA River bed. There was also the cars used for the crash scenes and as you can see in a couple of my pictures they were basically destroyed. When I looked in the interiors of the non “beauty“ cars, other than the roll bar and steering wheel, they were stock and had nothing else that would tell you that they were Eleanor's. When you look at the movie there is absolutely no way you would know that you are seeing 11 different cars.     

It's really something now to look back after all these years and realize that, at the time, they were as I said earlier, just used movie prop cars, but now they are worth a fortune. I would have never thought this would happen. I am just glad that we were lucky enough to find and be able to record a REAL 1967 GT 500 (#3196) and Eleanor will always be the sound of that car."


(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Eleanor_wrecks_a.jpg)

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Eleanor_wrecks_b.jpg)

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Eleanor_wrecks_c.jpg) 

(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/Eleanor_wrecks_d.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: tesgt350 on October 04, 2017, 11:46:47 AM
I would love to have those Cars, put the removed Parts back on them and then mount them on Trailers and take them on Tour to major Car Shows.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: MyShelbyDream on October 04, 2017, 12:49:05 PM
Kieth,

You never fail to entertain us with George stories and pics.  Thank you so much for sharing.  How cool is it that we know what Shelby made the Elenanor sound in the original movie?



Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: 06 GT on October 04, 2017, 03:26:54 PM
 Every bit of sound for all vehicles was recorded there with the exception of the Ferraris. I made extensive diagrams and notes for every vehicle maneuver basically being able to match all of their moves. I did all the driving with the exception of the Ferraris which we recorded at another location. We spent 2 full days with 3196 and recorded hours and hours of material, even smaller type sounds like the shifter, doors, trunk and hood open and closes. We always recorded way more than needed just in case a shot would be changed.
Details like this are why Oscar (2 wins several other nominations) resides on Georges mantel.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Don Johnston on October 04, 2017, 08:00:03 PM
This is great material with photos for a national auto magazine article.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: car 26-JD on October 04, 2017, 09:18:02 PM
Amazing what goes into making these movies.  Thanks George and Kieth.



Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on October 04, 2017, 11:54:01 PM
Kieth,

You never fail to entertain us with George stories and pics.  Thank you so much for sharing.  How cool is it that we know what Shelby made the Elenanor sound in the original movie?

Brian, it's the coolest thing ever!


George adds this:

"Kieth, I remembered one more thing I forgot to mention regarding my visit to Cinema Vehicles. Every Eleanor that I saw that day including the ones in my pictures and the two I drove were all AUTOMATICS.  The only 4 speed I saw was the “Beauty“ car, which again, was used for the interior shots during the movie filming."                                                                                                                                          

George


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on November 07, 2017, 08:52:37 AM
Here's the other genuine Shelby that George came across at Cinema Vehicles in 1999 when he was searching for a car to use for the sound track of "Gone in 60 Seconds."

His words:

"As we have discussed in our previous posts, I told the story of my first trip to Cinema Vehicles where I found 1967 GT 500 #3196, and that car became the sound of Eleanor. I think I had mentioned that there was a warehouse on the property and that it housed, in addition to 3196, a large variety of expensive vehicles that were rented out to movie companies. Basically the ones that were too nice to be kept outside. If I remember correctly there might have been maybe 30 or 40 cars inside. There was another 67’ GT 500 parked off to the side in a corner and below are the only 2 pictures I took of it. We were very lucky that 3196 was a 4 speed and when I finally saw this white GT 500 I was excited that it might also be a 4 speed and we might have 2 cars to choose from. But when I looked inside and saw that it was a automatic I knew that it was now out of the question. 

I did write the serial number down, but unfortunately it has been lost in time. A few months later before the movie came out I was told something very interesting……….this car was made into an Eleanor, used for promotion and then given to the Producer of the film. At the time it would have been very easy for me to confirm all of this because I knew where the car was kept, but at that period I really did not give it a second thought.  Now 17 years later with all of the interest in the Eleanor’s, I wish I had gone and looked at it so I could confirm this. Based on what I was told at the time I do believe that this is probably true."


This one looks like a really nice car. Love the wheel covers!





(http://saacforum.com/galleryc/albums/userpics/11081/At_Cinema_Vehicles_%281999%29.jpg)


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: car 26-JD on November 07, 2017, 09:07:09 AM
If that White GT500 got made into an Eleanor - that's a crime!


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: richstang on November 07, 2017, 09:29:44 AM
Looks like there were 103 white GT500's with automatics.....of those, it appears about 15 may have had hubcaps from the factory....
None of these 15 cars were reported as owned by Cinema Vehicles in the current registry, most of these 15 were not in CA area.


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM6S087 on November 07, 2017, 12:50:34 PM
Thank you to Kieth and George for some great stories and pictures. I always smile when I see a new post in this topic because I know I’m going to enjoy checking it out.

Steve


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: BryanW on November 08, 2017, 07:37:04 AM
Thank you to Kieth and George for some great stories and pictures. I always smile when I see a new post in this topic because I know I’m going to enjoy checking it out.

Steve


+1  :cool1


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: acman63 on November 08, 2017, 09:17:35 AM
Thank you to Kieth and George for some great stories and pictures. I always smile when I see a new post in this topic because I know I’m going to enjoy checking it out.

Steve


Steve:  Thanks to you for getting Kieth going on all this computer stuff.  Youve created a monster


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: SFM66H on November 08, 2017, 10:11:32 AM
There are times in my computer past when things came to a screeching halt  :geekout because of technical problems. If it weren't for Steve's knowledge, patience, and willingness to spend a lot of time helping and guiding me, all of my threads and photos on this Forum would have ceased long ago, and that would have been a loss for all of us.

So Thanks to Steve  Chug a Lug for all of the Shelby American Inc. history that we all have been able to share because of his help!

Kieth


Title: Re: GEORGE WATTERS COLLECTION
Post by: Szabo on November 19, 2017, 04:18:09 PM
Hello,

i want to thank you to, because you bringing me to build my 1/64 LAX Sales Office and
probally one Hangar Front Side - even in this Scale the Hangars are hugh.

With Mr. Watters awesome Photos of LAX in the backround of all the Shelby´s and GT40´s
i have a good postion to make research and meassure the original size.

Please let me know when you have more photos of Cars with LAX in backround, even
the normally "bad" Pics for showing can have good Infos.

Are there generell more Photos for Mr. Watters or you showed them all in this Thread ???

Looking forward to see real historic photos from Shelbys!

Best Regards from Germany

Stephan (Steve)