I got a call from the original owner (his son) that I bought my 68 350 from. He is claiming to have found what he believes was the original motor (short block) to my car in their barn. If true its been there since 1971 and is very corroded! Anyhow its in a very difficult location (fell through floorboards) to get at so I cannot see the VIN stamping or castings without a real commitment and half a day. I can see the stamping on the front surface near the water pump which 8C4Y. My car was built 4/23/68. I certainly hope it is the block, but before I commit my time digging it out and I suspect a lot of $$, I want to be sure based on these numbers it seems right. Thoughts?
Quote from: hurlbird on December 07, 2023, 05:20:39 PM
I got a call from the original owner (his son) that I bought my 68 350 from. .............. I can see the stamping on the front surface near the water pump which 8C4Y. My car was built 4/23/68. I certainly hope it is the block, but before I commit my time digging it out and I suspect a lot of $$, I want to be sure based on these numbers it seems right. Thoughts?
What it sounds like from the description is that you located the assembly date of 8C4Y which decodes, for the date, March 4th 1968. Guess your know where the casting date is and the car's VIN was stamped or do you need a refresher on those locations?
To every other person in the world, it's a rusty core, and only worth a couple hundred bucks. The only person he can sell it to for more is you. Don't let him gouge you too bad.
The derivative VIN should be on a pad behind the carburetor facing upward
I know where the other numbers are I wasn't familiar with the assembly date stamping. What is the Y indicating? How close to the build date should the assembly date be? Thanks
(http://www.thecoralsnake.com/nono1.jpg)
Intake would be above numbers in photo
Quote from: Coralsnake on December 07, 2023, 06:00:49 PM
The derivative VIN should be on a pad behind the carburetor facing upward
To clarify what Pete means, I think, It would be on the pad on top of the block just rearward of the rear edge of the intake manifold.
Pete posted photo of location while I was replying.
thank you i actually though it was further down behind.
What is the Y indicating? How close to the build date should the assembly date be? thanks
Quote from: hurlbird on December 07, 2023, 06:02:55 PM
I know where the other numbers are I wasn't familiar with the assembly date stamping. What is the Y indicating?
Initial of the worker who assembled the engine.
Quote from: hurlbird on December 07, 2023, 06:02:55 PMHow close to the build date should the assembly date be? Thanks
There is IMHO not exact amount of time between the cars completion date and the engines completion date more of a range that most would find "acceptable". Think most would accept without question a date of a couple of weeks to two months prior with out question. I assume that the date you provided of 4/23/68 was the cars real completion date from a Marti report and not from the door/warranty tag.
Maybe the following will help others locate the small block casting numbers and date as well as the VIN on a J code if some are still having a problem with locating each
(https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/20/6-071223194226-200021503.jpeg)
(https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/20/6-071223194226-200021737.jpeg)
We say that and then people take liberty with it and match blocks to cars.
I have been working on the GT 500 KR cast dates verses assembly dates and the windows are surprisingly smaller and predictable
very cool i did not know that. Based on the date range you suggest it certainly seems worth my time to confirm the other numbers. Thanks!
Right now its too hard to do GT350s the dates are not readily available. Look for the serial number where Rodney said 👍
Added some pictures to my post above
Quote from: Coralsnake on December 07, 2023, 06:46:01 PM
We say that and then people take liberty with it and match blocks to cars.
I have been working on the GT 500 KR cast dates verses assembly dates and the windows are surprisingly smaller and predictable
+1 In charting dates for many different panels and parts at all three plants it has been surprising how often dates and ranges fall into identifiable patterns and you can or almost identify shipments from the other supplying companies, sub contractors and other Ford plants once you collect enough data points.
thanks very much. no"8" before the T in the samples you provided? I would have thought there would be one?
Quote from: hurlbird on December 07, 2023, 09:38:13 PM
thanks very much. no"8" before the T in the samples you provided? I would have thought there would be one?
Most do and that was what was expected but some got missed as evident from the examples. Appears I put in (top one) a Dearborn example. My mistake so I might update that picture with one (both from 68 NJ) with and one without the "8"
thank you great info. I appreciate the new pics
And then we get into the weird stuff. A March built 68 GT350 auto car. Never been apart .All known owners and all owners said original engine not out until the prior owner pulled it and NEVER looked for numbers. Well we did after my friend bought it. All casting numbers are great for the car's assy date and the numbers on the engine match the trans. I repeat-they match each other. The problem? A smaller font size and numbers we've never seen before. Notice the grime that was cleaned off to expose the engine numbers and the trans numbers. We are talking a 302 and auto not a 428 4 speed. Patina said never been out in decades. Sure it isn't "matching numbers" but it is believed by all prior owners stating as such as being the original engine. 3rd pic is an Atlanta 302 J code engine that happened to be date coded right for my old 68 Shelby so it went in it. Notice 1 number is real light in the gang stamp but can be seen with the naked eye.
Have you checked with the club to see if there are any warranty records?
Quote from: Coralsnake on December 08, 2023, 01:43:26 PM
Have you checked with the club to see if there are any warranty records?
I thought we went through that a few years ago discussing that point but will check the registry. If it was indeed a warranty issue I wouldn't expect the date codes to be correct for the car especially when the car sold new in May of 1969 over a year later but it could have been a factory issue and corrected before going to AO Smith? Would there actually be records for that?
Quote from: shelbymann1970 on December 08, 2023, 01:31:21 PM
And then we get into the weird stuff. A March built 68 GT350 auto car. Never been apart .All known owners and all owners said original engine not out until the prior owner pulled it and NEVER looked for numbers. Well we did after my friend bought it. All casting numbers are great for the car's assy date and the numbers on the engine match the trans. I repeat-they match each other. The problem? A smaller font size and numbers we've never seen before. Notice the grime that was cleaned off to expose the engine numbers and the trans numbers. We are talking a 302 and auto not a 428 4 speed. Patina said never been out in decades. Sure it isn't "matching numbers" but it is believed by all prior owners stating as such as being the original engine. 3rd pic is an Atlanta 302 J code engine that happened to be date coded right for my old 68 Shelby so it went in it. Notice 1 number is real light in the gang stamp but can be seen with the naked eye.
A friend here owns a 68 GT350 with the original engine, has those same fonts for the VIN on the block. Everything matched IIRC (when the car was built vs casting date, block casting number, etc). Car is -14xx. Was actually sold new at Schmidt in Baltimore.
Dave
Quote from: CSX4781 on December 08, 2023, 03:11:21 PM
A friend here owns a 68 GT350 with the original engine, has those same fonts for the VIN on the block. Everything matched IIRC (when the car was built vs casting date, block casting number, etc). Car is -14xx. ......
Always a good idea IMO to compare details to other cars same plant and production period since those will be the best. Other plants, years and such really mean little in comparison. With this you can discover patterns and sub patterns if that is the answer. It's not like the worker, in the example of stamping VINs on engine and transmissions got a different set of stamps to just stamp them for only one car then went back to the "normal" expected stamps.
Warranty work would reflect only what the dealer did if they submitted a claim. The font size is not a concern in my opinion.
Maybe there is a reason the car sat for a year? The dealer could have switched this out before the first owner ever saw it.
I have memos from Northwestern saying they swapped a motor in a new car. This was to satisfy the customer for a warrantied motor. That means someone else ended up with a replacement and probably never knew it.
They also swapped out rear axle gears. Im not saying thats what happened in your example just providing some context
the 69 seem to have been stamped all together as a gang.. The 68 seems more free hand to me.
Quote from: hurlbird on December 08, 2023, 04:05:38 PM
the 69 seem to have been stamped all together as a gang.. The 68 seems more free hand to me.
The OPPOSITE of what you said. 68 302s are gang stamped while 69 351w are all over the place.
Quote from: CSX4781 on December 08, 2023, 03:11:21 PM
Quote from: shelbymann1970 on December 08, 2023, 01:31:21 PM
And then we get into the weird stuff. A March built 68 GT350 auto car. Never been apart .All known owners and all owners said original engine not out until the prior owner pulled it and NEVER looked for numbers. Well we did after my friend bought it. All casting numbers are great for the car's assy date and the numbers on the engine match the trans. I repeat-they match each other. The problem? A smaller font size and numbers we've never seen before. Notice the grime that was cleaned off to expose the engine numbers and the trans numbers. We are talking a 302 and auto not a 428 4 speed. Patina said never been out in decades. Sure it isn't "matching numbers" but it is believed by all prior owners stating as such as being the original engine. 3rd pic is an Atlanta 302 J code engine that happened to be date coded right for my old 68 Shelby so it went in it. Notice 1 number is real light in the gang stamp but can be seen with the naked eye.
A friend here owns a 68 GT350 with the original engine, has those same fonts for the VIN on the block. Everything matched IIRC (when the car was built vs casting date, block casting number, etc). Car is -14xx. Was actually sold new at Schmidt in Baltimore.
Dave
Thanks. I understand engine swapping and such but while I don't gamble i'd like to see the odds of both engine and trans being swapped out at same time given diff stamped numbers and why now on 2 cars they are date coded correct. Now my 69 428 SCJ 4 speed Mach1 I bought and all prior owners said original engine. I found no numbers on the block or heads when I bought it(numb matching doesn't mean much to me but original style engine does). May 9 build with a sept cast block in it. No numbers. Easy, warranty block. Maybe the OO thought the engine was "fixed" when he got it back. But to find both engine and tranny replaced and date codes match up is pretty darn odd. My take is looking at warranty engines they had no stampings on them. But these 2 cars have it both the engine and trans. A mystery we may never find out on. Is it possible for me to get in contact with your friend to compare notes? Thanks. Gary
You seem to be focused on the date codes matching. If it was done early (before being sold) the likely hood the date codes would match would be exponentially higher.
What happens with other displacements might be entirely different. Everything has to be looked at a case y case basis in my opinion. Sometimes you are just not going to be able to explain it.
Quote from: Coralsnake on December 09, 2023, 09:12:59 AM
You seem to be focused on the date codes matching. If it was done early (before being sold) the likely hood the date codes would match would be exponentially higher.
What happens with other displacements might be entirely different. Everything has to be looked at a case y case basis in my opinion. Sometimes you are just not going to be able to explain it.
+1 as I agree on that I also think this is one of those cases where we won't be able to figure out what is up. It is the stamped sequence which bewilders me as I've seen enough warranty replacement engines and no numbers on them-or maybe these 2 302 cars are ones with warranty numbers? Again why both engine and trans and not one or the other(stolen drivetrains?) 2 cases now. It is just plain weird.
I own my 68 GT350 sine April 4, 1972. As far as the engine block being stamped with the chassis serial number, what I found when I pulled out the engine, it was stamped 8 149.
That's it. No T. Only the first three numbers of the Ford number. I didn't record the assembly date at the time.
I have another 68 302 block that has no chassis ID's in it at all.
If you ask me, this is all par for the course for Ford and it just might be that the procedures varied at each assembly plant. That's where the chassis number would have to be applied. Not at the engine assembly plant.
Frankly with Ford's casuality about substituting non-production line parts in service parts as an example, this is just how they worked. They could give a "flying fig" about what Concourse Judges would think today. They'd probably tell you something "off the record of GET A LIFE!" so to speak? ;D
With all of this talk what does the market have to say about numbers? Is there really a great difference in value? I assume the following scenarios impact value from less (decrease) to more but by how much do you think?
1. wrong engine (year) -XX%
2. Correct year wrong month - XY%
3. Correct year and correct month, wrong VIN- YY%
4. Matching VIN- N/A
Or is it black and white Original to car vs. Not?
with other makes and models I don't see a big difference and that difference seems to be fading with all of the LS swapping going on.....
(https://www.saacforum.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=35.0;attach=2150;image)
location and yes smaller size font 8t015357 on my car
(https://www.saacforum.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=35.0;attach=2152;image)
I don't see thread related to "concours", contrary to some others. It was presented as identifying authentic/original motors. That does not apply to 95% of cars even if they are concours cars.
There is no doubt mistakes happened and numbers were stamped lightly making them difficult to find and hard to read.
There are so few people that care and appreciate matching numbers I personally look at the values as the values and if you want to go the extra distance the equation is value + x for those elite cars.
We have to remember what the purpose of these cars was and why they were built
Quote from: hurlbird on December 09, 2023, 11:03:27 AM
With all of this talk what does the market have to say about numbers? Is there really a great difference in value? I assume the following scenarios impact value from less (decrease) to more but by how much do you think?
1. wrong engine (year) -XX%
2. Correct year wrong month - XY%
3. Correct year and correct month, wrong VIN- YY%
4. Matching VIN- N/A
Or is it black and white Original to car vs. Not?
with other makes and models I don't see a big difference and that difference seems to be fading with all of the LS swapping going on.....
It has been mentioned by others that possibly the whole package should come into play? Suppose you see a rust free original panel car with a correct non original engine in the car next to a "frankenstein" rust belt car that is numbers matching but most of it's metal replaced with Dynocorn metal. All other things equal like condition and correctness. Which car would you rather have? Is the soul in the engine or the body? That is then up to buyers to decide. For most of my 45 years as an adult owning these cars numbers matching never came into play with the value. Most of us didn't even know blocks were stamped. I was much more concerned I didn't have a 390 or 410 with 428 CJ heads than whether or not the engine was original. That was for the Chevy boys because the vin didn't contain an engine code. I've seen world records set with non matching engines. a 67 L88 Vette, Milt Robson's old 71 HEMI Cuda vert. I'm sure the Coralsnake sold for really good $$$. I'm tired of people picking/debating that 66 Shelby on BaT for the stamp over block. They should concentrate on the whole car as a package. So someone stamped a block for a vert, then who knows, lunch break or what ever then stamped the next block the same and has an Oh crap moment and stamps over the vert vin with the correct sequence numbers and to me, the "8" still being there isn't a "Ah HAH!" moment as the worker could have been hurrying to fix his mistake.
Quote from: hurlbird on December 09, 2023, 11:03:27 AM
With all of this talk what does the market have to say about numbers? Is there really a great difference in value? I assume the following scenarios impact value from less (decrease) to more but by how much do you think?
I matters enough to the bottom line that people will restamp parts to increase the value.
Hi to folks who really study collector cars.
No matter what type of collectible it is--car--coin--toy--the basic rules of condition,documentation,and amount produced always are
key factors in value. In the case of an engine block or assembly if this is an original it still may be worthless if improper storage has
corroded critical machined parts or it has cracked. I think it is more important to find out why it was removed in the first place, and
what its current condition is....will it be practical to save/restore this engine ? or is it just old metal. If it was a special casting like a
302 tunnel port block-from a car with documented race history this may be worth the effort. If it is a 2 bolt main 302 the one that
is currently in your car may be healthier and best left in place. As a few have mentioned it may not be worth much as it is from a mass
produced car nothing more. Sometimes the seller needs to verify that there is a good reason to finally say it has gone back to the
current owner, and hopefully you can agree on something. Good luck with whatever takes place.
I appreciate your thoughts... I personally am of the opinion that matching numbers is great, but period correct is enough for me so that all elements appear as they did from the factory. I'm a stickler for that. VIN on the block in a location that cannot be seen from the naked eye isn't terribly meaningful, but given the chance I'd rather have it of course. That said we will see what happens here, and quite frankly should it be the one i would leave the car alone and put it in the corner of my barn since my car runs great as is! ;D