My two cents :
So are the newer Shelbys really Shelbys?
Or are they really Ford cars wearing the Shelby name?
What do you think?
I would say YES and No and here is why.
Starting in 2006 Shelby American Incorporated (based in Las Vegas Nevada) modified several Mustang GTs into the Shelby GT and Shelby GT-H.
In 2007 and until 2014 Ford Motor Company engineered and manufactured the Shelby GT500 under license from Carroll Shelby with some models sent to Shelby American for conversion into The GT500KR and Super Snake.
In 2011 Shelby American brought back the Shelby GT350 which was produced at the Las Vegas facility until 2012 and in 2015 until present there are the SAI produced Shelby GT, Shelby GT-S along with the Super Snake and other models.
Between 2012 and present and before Carroll Shelby's death Ford acquired the licensing for the GT350 moniker and like the previous and most recent Shelby GT500 engineered and now manufactures both the GT350, GT350R, GT500 (with its Carbon Fiber Track Pack variant) with Shelby American still manufacturing the aforementioned post title cars like the Shelby GT and GT-S as well as Super Snake and upcoming variants of the Shelby GT500.
Due to Ford acquiring the GT350 and GT500 monikers there is a bit of a split in the Shelby community over what constitutes a genuine Shelby Mustang with some holding that the real Shelby Mustangs are only produced by Shelby American out of Las Vegas Nevada as post title cars. I do not consider the Ford engineered and manufactured cars to be authentic Shelby automobiles
So simply put if it traveled to Shelby American, got massaged, got a C. S. M. Number it is a true S H E L B Y .
If it just has a S H E L B Y name on it, no. But you do have one of the finest handling and accelerating mustangs ever produced
Well that brings up the age-old question, are Shelby's produced in 1968, 1969 1970 genuine Shelby products since they were built by Ford? My opinion, if they came from the factory with Shelby on the car they are Shelbys. Some may have more pedigree than others, but if you are going to say SVT produced GT500's aren't real Shelbys I think you are insinuating that neither are 68's, 69's and 70's. Just my opinion.
All are Shelby's (with limited input from C.S. after they left LAX)
Quote from: owenkelley on November 10, 2022, 12:04:20 PM
Well that brings up the age-old question, are Shelby's produced in 1968, 1969 1970 genuine Shelby products since they were built by Ford? My opinion, if they came from the factory with Shelby on the car they are Shelbys. Some may have more pedigree than others, but if you are going to say SVT produced GT500's aren't real Shelbys I think you are insinuating that neither are 68's, 69's and 70's. Just my opinion.
Great points you bring up, but I slightly differ from your opinion.
I think the 69s and 70s had many influencers in their production.
They had the Ford Motor Company, A. O. Smith, Shelby Automotive and lastly the Federal Government. Shelby was still the picture in 1970 at least contractually. So by default (in my eyes) they qualify as the last S H E L B Ys of that era.
The new ones fall into two groups, those that are licensed and labeled by Ford as shelbys.
Those that make the pilgrimage to Shelby American and become S H E L B Ys.
Yes they both are S H E L B Ys (I can read the name plate and stickers) but truly they are not.
Just like the fellas with the plastic cobras, you compliment them on their cars. They come back with its a real 65 cobra.
No it's not, it's a fiberglass replicar tilted in you state ( pick a year) 1965
And of course it's real, I can see it, touch it and hear it. But it's not a real 1965 cobra.....
Let's get back on track, them there new fangled mustangs, shelbys or not ?
Not
You need to go back further into trademark history. In 1967 Shelby's loan from Ford Motor Company to start Shelby American came due. He did not have the money so Ford took possession of the assets which included the trademarks - Cobra, GT350, GT500. In the 80s Ford brought out a Fox body with GT350 stripes. Shelby sued and got reminded that he no longer owned or had access to the trademarks. As part of that settlement CS was allowed to use the Cobra trademark on 2 seat sports cars.
Ford never needed licensing to use any of the old trademarks. What they paid for was the name Shelby and the right to use his likeness in advertising. It's all spelled out in a 2005(6) 12 million dollar 5 year personal services contract. As part of that contract he was allowed to have Mustangs drop shipped to him for modification and sales through selected dealers. Those cars carried the name Shelby GT as Ford would not allow use of GT350/500. Those cars got a lot of flack at the time because they were just Mustang GTs with $2,500 worth of Motorsport suspension bits and stripes. SA did no development work on those cars. I imagine that SAs use of KR was licensed to them by Ford since the moniker was created when Shelby Automotive was wholly owned by Ford. Or Ford may not have protected the KR part and it fell into public domain.
Shortly after the Shelby GT was introduced the feds started cracking down on emissions modifications on new cars. They seized several Mustangs and Corvettes off dealer showroom floors for having uncertified modifications. This led to the Post Title mods. You buy the car and you pay to have it modified to your specs - that lets the manufacturer and dealer off the hook.
If you read about the 2011 GT350 you'll see it's another Motorsport parts add on with more post title "tuning" Ford would be the one licensing the name to SA not the other way around.
https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2011-ford-shelby-gt350/
What is interesting is CSs quote at the time which seem to express his true feelings on the future: Carroll Shelby, who turns 87 this year, says, "We've come full circle with the GT350. When Lee Iacocca asked me to do the first one 45 years ago, I told him I didn't think you could make a mule outrun a race horse. But he insisted, and we put it together. It turned out to be quite a success. Some people will be building hydrogen cars and electric cars and hybrids. But Shelby American's not going down that road. We'll leave that to the companies that make those kinds of things their business. I still believe in the Otto cycle engine. It's got a whole lot of life left in it and will be around long after I'm gone. We're about performance, and this car is built around the latest technology from Ford and the new 5.0-liter engine, not a bunch of lithium-ion batteries. I hope this new GT350 gets as much attention as the original in '65 -- the one I didn't want to build in the first place."
Bottom line Shelby American quit being the manufacturer of Mustangs in mid 1967. Anything new since that time was manufactured by Ford Motor Company. In 1968-69 they were built by Shelby Automotive a wholly owned Ford company that Carroll Shelby was hired to front for - His company at that time was Shelby Racing Inc (using a 3 year contract from Ford for the LeMans, TransAm and CanAm series). When that ended in 1970 CS and Ford parted ways. Decoding some of the later VINs you'll find Shelby as a model but they are still listed as manufactured by Ford. The Ford Shelbys were all developed by Ford SVT and had no input from Carroll Shelby. He was the face on the ad just like in 68-70.
Quote from: 98SVT - was 06GT on November 10, 2022, 12:54:34 PM
You need to go back further into trademark history. In 1967 Shelby's loan from Ford Motor Company to start Shelby American came due. He did not have the money so Ford took possession of the assets which included the trademarks - Cobra, GT350, GT500. In the 80s Ford brought out a Fox body with GT350 stripes. Shelby sued and got reminded that he no longer owned or had access to the trademarks. As part of that settlement CS was allowed to use the Cobra trademark on 2 seat sports cars.
Ford never needed licensing to use any of the old trademarks. What they paid for was the name Shelby and the right to use his likeness in advertising. It's all spelled out in a 2005(6) 12 million dollar 5 year personal services contract. As part of that contract he was allowed to have Mustangs drop shipped to him for modification and sales through selected dealers. Those cars carried the name Shelby GT as Ford would not allow use of GT350/500. Those cars got a lot of flack at the time because they were just Mustang GTs with $2,500 worth of Motorsport suspension bits and stripes. SA did no development work on those cars. I imagine that SAs use of KR was licensed to them by Ford since the moniker was created when Shelby Automotive was wholly owned by Ford. Or Ford may not have protected the KR part and it fell into public domain.
Shortly after the Shelby GT was introduced the feds started cracking down on emissions modifications on new cars. They seized several Mustangs and Corvettes off dealer showroom floors for having uncertified modifications. This led to the Post Title mods. You buy the car and you pay to have it modified to your specs - that lets the manufacturer and dealer off the hook.
If you read about the 2011 GT350 you'll see it's another Motorsport parts add on with more post title "tuning" Ford would be the one licensing the name to SA not the other way around.
https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2011-ford-shelby-gt350/
What is interesting is CSs quote at the time which seem to express his true feelings on the future: Carroll Shelby, who turns 87 this year, says, "We've come full circle with the GT350. When Lee Iacocca asked me to do the first one 45 years ago, I told him I didn't think you could make a mule outrun a race horse. But he insisted, and we put it together. It turned out to be quite a success. Some people will be building hydrogen cars and electric cars and hybrids. But Shelby American's not going down that road. We'll leave that to the companies that make those kinds of things their business. I still believe in the Otto cycle engine. It's got a whole lot of life left in it and will be around long after I'm gone. We're about performance, and this car is built around the latest technology from Ford and the new 5.0-liter engine, not a bunch of lithium-ion batteries. I hope this new GT350 gets as much attention as the original in '65 -- the one I didn't want to build in the first place."
Bottom line Shelby American quit being the manufacturer of Mustangs in mid 1967. Anything new since that time was manufactured by Ford Motor Company. In 1968-69 they were built by Shelby Automotive a wholly owned Ford company that Carroll Shelby was hired to front for - His company at that time was Shelby Racing Inc (using a 3 year contract from Ford for the LeMans, TransAm and CanAm series). When that ended in 1970 CS and Ford parted ways. Decoding some of the later VINs you'll find Shelby as a model but they are still listed as manufactured by Ford. The Ford Shelbys were all developed by Ford SVT and had no input from Carroll Shelby. He was the face on the ad just like in 68-70.
Loud and clear, 68 , 69, 70 are under the CS facsimile.
So where do you stand on the Ford shelby and the S. A. S H E L B Y?
I have no dog in this fight. I own a 1966 and a 1967. 8)
Quote from: S7MS427 on November 10, 2022, 01:33:12 PM
I have no dog in this fight. I own a 1966 and a 1967. 8)
Very nice, "the real ones"
Quote from: FL SAAC on November 10, 2022, 02:04:46 PM
Quote from: S7MS427 on November 10, 2022, 01:33:12 PM
I have no dog in this fight. I own a 1966 and a 1967. 8)
Very nice, "the real ones"
How late a 67? Don't forget Ford took over production at the airport around April/May 67. It seems pretty likely if you have one of the Z marked vin tags your car was produced under Ford ownership not SA.
As far as my take on Ford VS Shelby - since 2005 (arguably 1968) all have been tributes to the accomplishments that Carroll Shelby was able to produce with the team of SoCal hot rodders he put together in the 60s. None of the newer cars has made any historical record and lives on the history of their ancestors. I'd liken them to 2nd or 3rd generation wealth where the children and grand children live off the good name and money their ancestor created.
Quote from: 98SVT - was 06GT on November 10, 2022, 04:02:49 PM
Quote from: FL SAAC on November 10, 2022, 02:04:46 PM
Quote from: S7MS427 on November 10, 2022, 01:33:12 PM
I have no dog in this fight. I own a 1966 and a 1967. 8)
Very nice, "the real ones"
How late a 67? Don't forget Ford took over production at the airport around April/May 67. It seems pretty likely if you have one of the Z marked vin tags your car was produced under Ford ownership not SA.
As far as my take on Ford VS Shelby - since 2005 (arguably 1968) all have been tributes to the accomplishments that Carroll Shelby was able to produce with the team of SoCal hot rodders he put together in the 60s. None of the newer cars has made any historical record and lives on the history of their ancestors. I'd liken them to 2nd or 3rd generation wealth where the children and grand children live off the good name and money their ancestor created.
Slam Dunk !
well, hornets nest :)
I see it as a sliding scale - 65R guys see that as the only "real" Shelby, then the rest of the 65s, then the carryover crew, the 66's etc etc. Generally reflected in value, racing pedigree, attractiveness and of course degree of seperation from core SA
my 2c (and yes, of course post 66 are dead to me and I would say the same of 66's if I could afford a 65 :)
Quote from: 98SVT - was 06GT on November 10, 2022, 04:02:49 PM
Quote from: FL SAAC on November 10, 2022, 02:04:46 PM
Quote from: S7MS427 on November 10, 2022, 01:33:12 PM
I have no dog in this fight. I own a 1966 and a 1967. 8)
Very nice, "the real ones"
How late a 67? Don't forget Ford took over production at the airport around April/May 67. It seems pretty likely if you have one of the Z marked vin tags your car was produced under Ford ownership not SA.
You can see just how late a '67 from my signature (pretty late). And yes I have a Z marked vin tag.
I would think that the personnel and manufacturing methods would remain pretty much the same the entire year. After all, you don't hear about a sudden layoff or change in manufacturing techniques midway through the manufacturing year.
And now that it's been brought up, I guess I do have a dog in this fight after all. Or maybe half a dog. :(
So the 86 GLH-S's that were made, are real Shelbys?
So what, then, do these SAAC Registries mean and why are thousands of hours being put into keeping records on these other named Shelby Mustangs after 1967? CS used to say that if it had his name on the car, it was indeed a Shelby vehicle. He never personally built any of them but got people and contracts to get them built and use his name under license. This debate comes up frequently and is always interesting. 8)
Quote from: 67 GT350 on November 10, 2022, 06:31:34 PM
So the 86 GLH-S's that were made, are real Shelbys?
Yes. Those were Dodge Shelbys. Not Ford Shelbys.
Carroll definitely had strong input on the Dodges. I was there.
Quote from: Side-Oilers on November 10, 2022, 06:55:09 PMCarroll definitely had strong input on the Dodges. I was there.
+1 he was there (Whittier) nearly every day having fun being Chrysler's skunk works. I remember when Hot Rod got hate mail when a GLH-S beat a well prepped GT350 at Willow. CS was somewhat upset and sent Rick Titus to Willow at the next Cobra event to back up the earlier results in public. He did mention that he had added another 20-30 hp to the car we took.
I took the wife's Plymouth minivan there when we shot a cover for Mustang Illustrated - Carroll looked at it an said those wheels have the wrong offset - they were off a Motor Trend project car that went to the crusher (with my van wheels). He pointed at a stack of BBS wheels with new Gatorbacks and said take those they have the right offset. I never could understand how he kept so many details about different projects straight in his head.
" None of the newer cars has made any historical record and lives on the history of their ancestors. I'd liken them to 2nd or 3rd generation wealth where the children and grand children live off the good name and money their ancestor created."